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You'll be the judge
You'll be the judge

New MessageYou'll be the judge (modified 0 times) jukebox
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You guys and gals may have noticed some bad blood between infiniti and me. I highly regret this is happening and I want this resolved.

This is what I see going on here.
I worked 4 months and hundreds of hours on the creation of my jukebox3 image with many real hacks that changed the inner guts of Audrey.

The only other person on this board who can realy judge what I have done is davinci. He was at least 6 months ahead of me with his MQNX image, however MQNX is totally different in structure than mine.

infiniti took jukebox3 and added the following features, calling it inspired by me, but called it his own new image and shows off the image in full as it was made by me, that way confusing the users of this board.

These are his changes in my jukebox3 image:
1. he did a hack with shelf to resemble windows and that's great, because on the fly it seems to resolve network problems that neither davinci or myself could resolve
2. he added picframe, icq, date & time on autostart, nice but no hacks
3. boot time reduced, nice but not very elegantly working in my opinion. I did it before him and decided not to use it and introduced a new flash intro
4. phjuke, that in my opinion belongs on the share with the MP3 files, is no hack, but is of course not a problem either
5. pterm on channel selector, which isn't new either and in my opinion annoying because I use the knob for the 3 F keys it represents and to cycle through CallerID.

Compared to what I had done to develop this image it's nice but except for the shelf hack it would have been only 15 minutes work for me on top of hundreds of hours done before. I wouldn't dare to do the same with MQNX and call it a new image.

And it took me a while to have him explain his single real hack with shelf, but instead he gave some information from QNX.com that did not explain it, but did bring me on the right course to figure it out myself.

If he had said I used the jukebox3 image and addded these features, his web page would be a lot less impressive, while taking full credit for his changes. I would not have had a single problem when he had done so. Hey, this is a free country, so why not.

Also he critizes me for bringing out 2 new images (USB1 and Steroids) while he did a minor update himself, what is ok of course. But how can someone critisize me for this? Now I have to maintain 3 images and that keeps me pretty busy and I like to do it without someone else breathing in my neck.

Now he hopes he or someone else brings out better images than mine and I hope the same for the benefit of all of us, but his tone is pure negative.

In the meantime when asked he said he wanted to see my USB1 improved before touching it and he singles jukebox users out to advise adding his features to my images. Why not advise others too?

I will applaud him for making his own and better image than mine. I applaud him already openly for the shelf hack and the screen saver/picframe hack he did himself. But it bothers me too seeing him answering questions about my images that are answered already on my web site and therefore making this board more and more confusing for its users.

You are the judge. If I'm overly sensitive, tell me and I shut up. If you think infinity is doing a lot of successful pr for himself, but doesn't do really as much as he pretends, say so too and he should shut up.

I am active on this board for fun and it should be fun for all of us and there should be no bad blood in any shape or form present.

jukebox


http://www.prins.net/audrey/index.html
04-04-2002 23:57:54

New MessageRE:You'll be the judge (modified 0 times) edraven
Profile
i havent been here very long at all, but i think its obvious that the images are yours jukebox. that said i havent checked out infinity's mods due to needing the support in usb1, but i say the more people hacking on audrey the better. one problem i see is you've repeatedly said there's no need to download a whole new image with a few mods and call it a new image when you can just download mods and add/subtract them yourself... but you nor anyone else have setup a website to make this happen. i've seen your downloads page but there's nothing on it yet. im not critising you for not having done it yet, but until that happens people will have to download entire images for changes unless they're audrey hackers. i really like the idea of a package install/uninstall script for audrey similar to up2date in redhat or apt-get in debian. that would really open up a whole new era in audrey mods, so people could just download a nearly empty image that only supports their nic, and then download only what they want. so can you guys kiss and make up and work together? :)
04-05-2002 00:28:00

New MessageRE:You'll be the judge (modified 0 times) davinci27
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Hey jukebox,
I underestand your frustrations, and I agree adding a couple of things doesn't constitue a new image just a modified image. This aside, I think you've hinted at a wonderful idea, and its something I'd like to see. Let's get back to "sharing hacks."

When I first started playing with my audrey, that is what you'd find on this board. Instructions on how to do hacks. I know I've contributed to the image war with MQNX, but everything in MQNX was a hack that could be found on this board. Anything that I did that was original, I published here as a hack prior to putting it in MQNX. I think image sharing is great for newbies or people who want a easy fix, but some people still like to play with audrey. I'll probably never switch to an image other than my own, but there are features of both your and infinities images that I'd like to add to my audrey. This is why explaining a hack is so important.

I'm hoping that my suggestion of a packaging system would help make this easier for everyone. I started playing with the idea last night and I don't think it will be to hard, so I'm going to move forward with it. My idea is that anyone could take a base audrey image and install the features they want to create a custom image that fits their needs.

I hope the community will embrace this idea or come up with a better one. No matter what I hope that as a group we can come to an understanding on images and move forward with improving the audrey regardless of what image you decide to install.

davinci27

04-05-2002 07:57:51

New MessageRE:You'll be the judge (modified 0 times) bholio
Profile
Jukebox,
I can see how this is bugging you. You spent alot of time on your image and then Infinity has taken your work and added a little and is getting as much attention as you do.

I think this is just the nature of this type of project. Your image is only possible because of the work of Sowbug (who originally got shell access) and (I think) Scythic, whose original upgrade server upgraded about 3000 Audreys (including 2 of mine). Then there's (again, I think) Suicidal, who figured out that something as simple as 'cat' was the way to copy an image from an Audrey. A lot of people were working on figuring that one out. How many Audreys has that little breakthrough saved from paperweight status? (1 of mine so far). I'm sure those guys each spent a significant amount of time and effort doing those things. I don't see credit given to the authors of ACID, on-screen keyboard, web keyboard, picture frame, etc. I don't think they really mind though.

Unless Infinity is selling or otherwise profiting from your work (like that ebay guy who is selling the CD of Audrey hacks). I wouldn't get too worked up about it. Infinity is not damaging any potential business as you could not sell your work as it is owned by QNX and 3com.

Like I said, I can see you being a little bothered, but it's not that big a deal. I think you 2 guys should either kiss and make up, or both agree to stay out of each other's threads and leave it at that.

04-05-2002 09:00:16

New MessageRE:You'll be the judge (modified 0 times) caderoux
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davinci is right - I haven't used any of these images because I'm waiting for them to be more easily customized by me AND be able to use a new version of the image when it is available without worrying about losing something. So easy, modular configuration is a must. Until then, I'm still using a modified stock Audrey image.
Cade Roux
04-05-2002 10:57:37

New MessageRE:You'll be the judge (modified 0 times) jukebox
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Attention is a key word that I haven't used in this thread. I'm not here to get attention, but to hack Audrey in a way that apparently works very well with hitting the 2500 mark in downloads for my combined images this Sunday. For a number that high I am happy top get very little attention compared to infinity who may pass the 400 mark in downloads this weekend.

I was the guy that proposed to setup an Audrey Repository and davincy who is far more knowledgeable about programming than I am (=0) came up with the even greater idea of a package installer for Audrey. This weekend the small Repository for my images will be done at least and I have my hopes up for contributions from others that will get full credit for them. I keep my fingers crossed but I don't expect much. Btw making this little Repository for 3 images is not as easy as it looks, it's time consuming and I prefer to hack further instead on those images, but that will have to wait a couple of days.

After the weekend I hope to release a real update for USB1 with all USB network cards supported out of the box plus a USB keyboard as an extra. Last but not leased it will include the shelf fix that may bring the network and screen up to regular speed again.
When I succeed I have created an image that's the easyest to use of all three for everybody, is as pure QNX as you can get and therefore prepared for upgrades to higher versions of QNX.

And I do all those things without any form of education for computers or technical background of any kind. All I have available is an analytical mind that can process huge amounts of data about any subject, understand structures and play with those as a game.

I consider myself blessed with a gift that not many people have and I allow myself every now and then to excel, but not to often because it's exhausting.

Attention is not an issue for me at all. I'm accustomed to get more of it then I need, everywhere I go in life.

jukebox


http://www.prins.net/audrey/index.html
04-05-2002 11:55:04

New MessageRE:You'll be the judge (modified 0 times) cdenny
Profile
I agree with the two earlier posts that claim they're looking for more hacking info over new images. I personally like the Audrey on Steroids post so I still have the calendar and contacts, and the Palm support. There are other items I would like to add, but I would get more enjoyment out of adding them myself over downloading a new image and having to reset all of my shelf changes and other data.

As far as I am concerned, I appreciate the work from everyone who has contributed to the Audrey hacking community, whether they have posted full images or not. This includes Sowbug, the makers of ACID and phJuke, jukebox, and infinity. From my standpoint, infinity has acknowledged that his images were based on jukebox's images. I thought that we were close to getting jukebox and infinity working together on a single image, but it appears now that that option is further away than it was.

Again, I appreciate everyone's work, but some attitudes from these same people have made this project less enjoyable for me lately. I sincerely hope that jukebox and infinity can work out their differences.

-Chris

04-05-2002 12:31:35

New MessageRE:You'll be the judge (modified 0 times) Fran
Profile
Jukebox - I totally see your point, but what has really happened to these discussions was hit right on the head by divinci. I have been on this board from the beginning and it was always about finding and publishing how-tos. Having entire images is great for many users of this board, but I hope we don't make that the focus. If the knowledge becomes proprietary to the generator(s) of images, this board has lost its purpose IMO.
04-05-2002 12:35:59

New MessageRE:You'll be the judge (modified 0 times) LauFu
Profile
Is there a defined etiquette for creating and distributing images? If not, should there be?

A simple convention for naming/describing images could be easily enforced, since most images are found/downloaded from audreyhacking.com.

It's not like there are really that many people distributing (new/useful) images.

Fu

04-05-2002 14:03:06

New MessageRE:You'll be the judge (modified 0 times) jukebox
Profile
About etiquette publishing images, I would have no problem whatsoever anybody using any of my images to add something significant and distribute it himself under his/her name telling clearly this is jukebox's image, see this link for more info and I added the following hacks, etc. see my page for the add ons.
Even more easy, they could add their hacks to my Repository instead, giving people more choice, that way working together for the benefit of all. Deeds speak louder than words if we say we want to work together.

jukebox


http://www.prins.net/audrey/index.html
04-05-2002 14:51:07

New MessageRE:You'll be the judge (modified 0 times) jukebox
Profile
I wonder if infinity thinks I can resolve this problem on my own, since he stays out of this thread.

jukebox


http://www.prins.net/audrey/index.html
04-06-2002 00:32:45

New MessageRE:You'll be the judge (modified 0 times) beaker
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How many hours have gone into discussing this?
04-06-2002 07:19:25

New MessageRE:You'll be the judge (modified 0 times) feanish
Profile
ok... here are some of my thoughts....

first off, let's relate this to something bigger... and what is a better example than Linux.... Linux is programed by thousands of people, but was initially developed by Linus Torvalds (granted... the kernel still is)

Now... there are sites that have their own distributions... such as mandrake, RedHat, and Debian/GNU... to name a few... Right along side of these, are groups that further modify the distributions. One such example is Storm Linux. Storm "is based on" Debian Linux, but they put it on CD, along with some other drivers, and different configs, and they call it their own... (albeit they do acknowledge that it is "based on" Debian)

now... if I got storm linux, and I had a problem with something, but it doesnt have anything to do with what Storm added, they don't say "no, that's something to do with debian, go ask at Debian"... they try and help out... Well... if you have a problem with debian, and go to them to try and ask a question, you'll be waiting for a while, because the amount of questions they get is huge... you could, however, go to the storm site, and see if the answer is there, or just ask the question.....

I applaud you on your image, jukebox, but there is no way you can answer all of the newbie questions out there... and I do have to say that the small amount of documentation on how to set stuff up in the image (at least USB1) is horrendous... I ended up switching to infinity, because I couldn't get my ethernet connection to keep the settings after I reboot (and mp3 playback was very skippy)

I think when he says "inspired by" it's misleading.... but I don't think that this thing should be enough to cause bad blood between you two... you guys are doing an awesome job with your images, and if I wanted my audrey for anything other than mp3 playing, I would probably have stuck with jukebox-usb1

04-06-2002 12:46:10

New MessageRE:You'll be the judge (modified 0 times) jukebox
Profile
I agree 100% with you looking to different Linux distributions. My one and only point here is the infinityaudrey image is NOT a different distribution and if you did with Linux what infinity did with my image I guarantee you get into trouble.
I'm sorry you had a problem with my USB1 manual. Changing the network settings is a 3 step process. I'll try to make it more clear.

jukebox


http://www.prins.net/audrey/index.html
04-06-2002 15:23:53

New MessageRE:You'll be the judge (modified 0 times) jukebox
Profile
Ok let's stop this and try to have some fun again hacking Audrey. I've done my part as promised on this board and enough is enough.
For me case closed, no hard feelings whatsoever.

jukebox


http://www.prins.net/audrey/index.html
04-07-2002 15:09:17

New MessageRE:You'll be the judge (modified 0 times) bman28
Profile
I saw the initial salvo and I believe it was a little bit of miscommunication and some sensitivity by both parties. I think both of you should just chill out and have fun. There are a lot of things in life worth getting upset aobut and I wouldn't think this is one of them. Jukebox you have done some incredible work, Inifinty's modified image caters to a little bit different crowd(imo) and this is great. No reason why everybody can't work together. My boss always tells me that Nobody has a monoply on all the good ideas, usually when I am being obstinate about my point of view. Just some food for thought for you guys. I am actually one of the few that doesn't want to mess much with the original stuff on the Audrey, but want to make things accesable through a web browser. I would love to see some more development work from that end personally, so I don't really havea dog in this race fwiw.
04-07-2002 20:39:15

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