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Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all
Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all

New MessageSuggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) dakotamod
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If you think you have a good idea post it here.
12-04-2004 21:42:29

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) dakotamod
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Can someone take 2 new high intensity white paper pictures from 2 inches using filters to only allow green in one case and to disallow it in the other case? Since bayer alternates greens every other pixel, this could provide a useful aid in attacking compression algorithm - especially if it yields a highly compressable image.
12-05-2004 08:26:11

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) scribble
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dakotamod-- Depending on what you want, all green and not all green image are not going to work. First, unless someone has a couple interference band pass filters with the proper spectral transmittance lying around in their basement, a typical photographic filter will not have the sharp cutoff need to isolate a single color in the bayer pattern. Second, even if someone did have the filters, there would still be roughly 8-10 ADV (A/D values--less confusing that a/d bits)of noise in the blue and red channels. Or green channel if you managed to block the green.

The only reason that the all white and the 'black' images compressed so well is that with the white images, every pixel was totally saturated and produced a string of ADV of 255. And with the black image there wasn't a real image, just the compression of zeros in the buffer memory. With anything else you'll have an array of 1288 by 864 ADVs in the raw file that should compress out to around 600k.

However, if images that are mostly green or mostly not green are helpful, I have a collection of photographic filters and a version two ritz blue camera without the LCD. If someone is willing to hold my hand and answer a string of elementary questions while I try to get that camera working--my expertize is optical hardware not software--I'm will to take whatever images you software gurus need.

scribble

12-05-2004 10:37:28

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) dakotamod
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Scribble (and just scribble for now),
I am willing to take a phone call (Sprint unlimited nights and weekends) and help walk you through the process - send me an email by obtaining a free guest membership at photo.net and then requesting my email address. First download Drmn4ea's poker from the Links thread, and if you can find it the old libusb windows software for original Blue. I agree with your comments and this may be shot in the dark (actually bright light), but we seem to be hung on identifying a compression algorithm. I think a very green piece of paper might achieve high ADV values for just every other pixel. I really think the compression experts have enough now, but it would be worthwhile to have another uncompressed poker = you.
12-05-2004 15:43:42

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) scribble
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Sounds like a plan to me. I'll be in touch.

scribble

12-05-2004 16:01:22

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) dakotamod
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We have yet to see actual evidence of an extended dynamic range from the SMaL sensors, but if they do work there is great opportunity for young minds exploring how to extend display capabilities in LCDs, CRTs, and DLP projectors. Just imagine some people wearing sunglasses in the theater - a whole new dimension. I still waiver between Patent rights and open source and am hopefull that individuals can still obtain and benefit from Patents. I expect several relating to extended dynamic range in the next 20-30 years - it would be interesting to see such improvements on Martian surface photographs.
12-05-2004 16:04:08

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) dakotamod
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Where are you scribble, no email, perhaps you first need to know who I am on photo.net:

http://www.photo.net/photodb/user?user_id=1135234

Send a phone number and time you would like to be called to my email, I'll reply back with a binary file and a call.

12-05-2004 18:45:30

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) dakotamod
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For anyone working on decode of PV2 Cadillac image for comparison to old Blue. Without Autobrite tm, it might not look very good. I believe with Autobrite properly applied lines between white slats on garage may contine from shaded area on left into what is washed out on old Blue photo. That would be Astounding! I wonder if it has already been applied or if it exists as "checkerboard pattern" from icedragon links.
12-05-2004 20:11:00

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) dakotamod
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After reading morcheeba's last post in discoveries, I realize it is going to be hard to keep suggestions separate - I have also placed suggestions in discoveries and when posting a discovery it makes since to include them. It is also annoying bouncing between threads, but it is very discouraging when they grow to over 100 posts. I hope we do not have to switch to "1 2 many 4 all 8 new threads" soon. I think he is onto a way to decode the checkerboard pattern, but even after that is done, I am getting a feeling that there is not going to be a single universal best way to apply the considerable additional information per pixel - software that allows a photographer to choose a muddy compromise versus a washed out area may provide a better solution than a proprietary network server's best guess. The selection of bit planes described in thesis might explain the checkerboard appearance. Of course if we had display devices that could display as wide of range as our eyes can see then we could simply display the extended 500 times range without a reducing algorithm. I can't get over the thought of sunglasses in theaters. Here is the thesis again - well worth reading: http://theses.mit.edu/Dienst/UI/2.0/ShowPage/0018.mit.theses%2f1999-310?npages=143&format=inline&page=39 .

I suggest that anyone writing software to display results (if there isn't a "best" method) consider patenting their ideas - and if successful not sell out or assign their rights. However this is moving fast enough that trying for a patent may slow you down causing you to miss the fast moving open source train.

12-06-2004 03:08:13

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) dakotamod
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I tried to adhere to that red sign; I do need a break and some sleep, but can't - my mind just wont stop! OK, I was very disappointed by what I thought was a lack of autobrite, but it can't be ruled out yet. Small differences in mask/checkerboard pattern between pictuers appear to be randomly placed (not likely a sequence counter) - they could indicate an autobrite voltage shift which in a live picture may only occasionally and randomly occur as pixels are scanned. So we might have a pattern generator using camera's serial number applied to autobrite shifts that from pixel to pixel would usually be zero. I may be to cheap to fill camera and return it for a free CD (what a waste to have to pay for prints) but maybe someone else will. I carefully removed port sticker and could easily put it back on. The process would be to take several high contrast pictures outdoors with lots of sun and shade (and lines running from shade to sun), running back in each time to download raw data, and then having it processed. Having seen some snow already - a good complete dusting in bright sunlight with shaded areas might be just the key. I am still anxiously awaiting to see whether there is some justification for SMaL claims. I hope boodles, scribbles, or someone else is up to the task. Even someone without any cable or software could take pictures for some initial impressions and comparisons between PV2s and "standard" cameras - the pictures displayed on SMaL's pages sure do appear to capture things other camers do not.
12-07-2004 04:56:46

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) toml
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Not sure if this is the right place, but it seemed a good followup.

CVS "Red" Camera w/ LCD "Ready to Recycle"

holding "display" and the "shutter" button, then pressing "on/off" displays:

FIRMWARE 6520
HARDWARE 06
TYPEID 30
CMP TYPEID 30
ID LAMSSMAL0000
REALMID 00

I didn't check the ID before I processed the images, nor did I tamper with this camera before processing. So I'm guessing that the processing thing changes the ID, but that's only speculation.

If it would help to see the pictures as processed by the machine from this camera, I have them all (though I think the CD has been trashed in a cleaning spree). However, the 25 pictures take about 33MB, which is more than I have free on any web host right now, so you'll have to let me know and I'll send them to you. Or you could point me to a 35MB free web host.. :)

I'm sure this doesn't belong here, but I was inspired by dakotamod's last post here....

12-07-2004 23:42:55

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) dakotamod
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If you have 2 very similar side by side - one with new PV2 (CVS) and one with old blue or even better a high end camera that clearly shows an autobrite advantage, I will be glad to post (please enter a question "Who wants to post" in the Questions 1 2 many 4 all thread and I or someone will respond). Explain briefly what is on both pictures. My yahoo briefcase is awkward and if there is anyone out there looking to boost hits on his/her web page - stand up and get noticed! I would like some real examples that look similar to pictures shown on SMaL's web site. I think if I had of been much closer to garage taking the two Cadillac pictures of the white slats at the top that there is a chance autobrite might show continued lines through high intensity washed out area. After reading the patent and thesis again yesterday it looks like there is some whole picture averaging going on to set a base - indicating that higher intensities might help; but taking that too far reducing shutter may show the lines on any camera. Thus a need for very similar side by side shots.
12-08-2004 00:11:54

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) dakotamod
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Drmn4ea, thanks for new poker. Please update docs to specifically give an example of line to be added to libusb.inf. This has been very confusing to many including myself. The Dakota example as given is for a composite device which does not seem to work for new PV2s.
"Dakota Digital Camera, ISO Interface, Version 02/15/2004, 0.1.8.0"=LIBUSB_COMP_IF, USB\VID_04FC&PID_FFFF&MI_00
"Dakota Digital Camera, Bulk Interface, Version 02/15/2004, 0.1.8.0"=LIBUSB_COMP_IF, USB\VID_04FC&PID_FFFF&MI_01

I have been using:
"Pure Digital PV2, Bulk Interface, Version 02/15/2004, 0.1.8.0"=LIBUSB_COMP_IF, USB\VID_0DCA&PID_0027

Also where can I look at your recently referenced allblack3,4 and 5 dumps - actually just need 1 since you provided differences. What program/utility did you use for comparing the files?

12-08-2004 02:02:56

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) dakotamod
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Mike is communicating with both CVS blue and red - see his post on CVS thread. Somebody should seriously think about making cables for ebay. This time of year you will probably sell all you can make. While we are not done yet, I am betting very shortly morcheeba will be able to show us how to download firmware, then its only a matter of time using his disassembler someone will be able to figure out how to download previously taken images and reset camera - I also bet he'll be the first someone. Who is ready to party with the Mad Hatter and March Hare? Darn that's a question in suggestions - just take it as a suggestion without question.
12-08-2004 19:32:51

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) Drmn4ea
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Dakotamod, answers to questions in (roughly) the order they were asked:

The example of the line to add to libusb.inf is IN libusb.inf (specifically, the Ritz PV2 line, but there is also a "LibUSB Sample Device" example provided there by the libusb developer). The catch you probably encountered is that the old Blue Dakota has what's known as a Composite USB interface while the new one does not - don't use the Composite stuff (ending in e.g. &MI_00).

All the dumps referred to in my last post are at the URL I provided, http://www.cexx.org/dakota/pv2stuff/dumps/ . The files were compared using the "fc.exe" program that comes with Windows (Win2k and earlier, down to MS-DOS v. low.really.low). Commandline for fc.exe is:

fc.exe /b file1.ext file2.ext

Someone also mentioned examining differences in files by putting the windows side-by-side and comparing bytes visually, Tiny Hexer (http://www.mirkes.de/en/freeware/tinyhex.php ) takes this a step further with a 'Compare' feature that shows the two files in windows side-by-side, links their scrollbars together and highlights all bytes that differ between the files. Good stuff!

12-08-2004 21:33:04

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) mike
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My 6520 model 410 responds to dca-0027
also I modified my usb arrangement.....
connected usb cable to rj11 phone block
have soldered rj11 pigtails to camera pins 6, 8,9,10
this make life easier for my 4 cams .....and rj11's are cheap
still waiting on morchebee to figure the usb out.......
12-09-2004 19:23:54

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) dakotamod
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My CVS 6520 required that I change 27 to 2B in libusb.inf, but usbpoker listed as dca 27.

Drmn4ea, is that a bug in poker - I might just be changing to many things at once.

Someone, please start making cables and post a link to ebay. After several switches between cameras trying to figure out why my red CVS works and my blue does not, one of springy palm pins broke. I am using 4 different cameras and expect some of my stocking stuffers will need assistance until end user software becomes available. I am also giving one away as a white elephant gift at on investment club gathering this weekend. Hope someone comes up with a better design than palm cables that is practical.

12-10-2004 05:46:34

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) dakotamod
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toml above indicated he has a "ready to recycle" camera with LaMSSMaL id. There is a chance that it may still have files that can be downloaded with $54. toml, if you have questions on how - post them in questions. Note that a ready to recylce has not been recycled - given a new id and blanked out pictures. It has just finished allowing a machine to access the flash. My theory is that after a network connection returns a good string (in response to camera serial #) the id is changed, perhaps type is changed also (his 3 finger gave 30) and the camera then allows command $54. Seems I saw where someone else in an earlier thread (109 posts or 306 posts) had forced a camera into this mode. Can someone scan and report back details here in suggestions. Also I hope someone can test $54 on one of these by just downloading one of the standard .TFT layed out on morcheebas page and of course if succesful immediately followed by FIRMWARE.BIN and an unquestionable discovery in discoveries. Here is his page of file names and layouts: http://www.maushammer.com/systems/dakotadigital/lcd-flash.html also look at his usb page in links for exact format of $54.
12-10-2004 16:41:34

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) Drmn4ea
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@dakotamod -

I don't think it's a bug in the poker per se; it just spits forth the device string as given by libusb-win32. I have noticed some strangeness with this as well; with all the playing around with libusb-win32 and the drivers of several Sunplus-based cameras I did during the work on the original Dakota, (not to mention playing with usbsnoopy) my machine seems a bit confused. The original Dakota showed up twice originally; after installing usbsnoopy services, now it shows up 4 times(!) in the poker (all unique "devices" reported by libusb-win32). I suspect a similar thing; if the .inf originally said the PID was 27, libusb might now be convinced of it.

PS. The source code is included with the poker; C-faring folks feel free to look it over for bugs and give me a howl if you see one.

12-10-2004 18:22:04

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) dakotamod
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The JPEG headers mentioned in my post on discoveries might already exist somewhere in the downloaded files of raw data. Please can someone download Raw Photodesk create the all white and all black 1288*864 images and look for similar header patterns on our raw images. I will not be spending more time on this, other than an occaisional check, until sometime tomorrow afternoon. Good luck, obtain a trial copy of Raw Photodesk: http://www.rawphotodesk.com/
12-10-2004 19:15:08

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) Drmn4ea
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I just created an allblack JPEG image of size 1288x864 in PSP with the absolute minimum compression, but it's still only 6845 bytes including all headers. The data area (minus qtables) is all $00s. I saw in another thread you mentioned getting repeating A2 8A 28 in a similar file from Raw Photodesk; how did this happen with all black/white input? (/me needs to read the specification again, but it sounds odd).

I'm still leaning toward a raw format; the data looks to me like it's split up into (58716 / 9 = 6524) data blocks individually encoded/compressed; the last one not all the way used.

12-11-2004 14:05:55

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) dakotamod
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Drmn4ea, There are different ways to write jpg based on how lossy of an image you want. For now I am assuming no loss. Raw Photodesk under file options allows you to specify the quality - I have it at 100. For more detail: http://www.photo.net/learn/jpeg/
12-11-2004 14:24:54

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) dakotamod
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I have another engagement tonight, and would like someone to try something for compression analysis. First create a raw file of 10FB00 00's (This is what is in raw image in camera for the cut line black). Find a tool that will treat it as bayer input, read it in, debayer, and save it back as a lossless jpg. That may compare with the compressed version of Drmn4ea's cut line black.
12-11-2004 16:03:05

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) bentfork
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@Drmn4ea thanks for the file merging utility. I was just writing one when I saw yours posted.

After a bunch of us get a good image we should start sharing multiple md5's of the file. Maybe we could use the .torrent format. ( with the tracker field blank)

---
FAT12, when fat16 is just too damn big.

12-12-2004 00:15:28

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) dakotamod
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I suggest that the changing bits are not a hardware problem, just code changing itself as it executes, creating major difficulties for disassembly (early 80's PC protection schemes did that, easliy overcome then by taking a dump after most events had allready happened). morcheeba, has this sort of thing been hindering your success?
12-12-2004 05:52:33

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) dakotamod
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Let's make sure there is no sharing of firmware dumps! That is illegal!
Please experiment with sequences needed to produce a non changing code dump (it may not be possible forcing a gruelling effort to disassemble multiple logic flows).
12-12-2004 06:03:55

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) dakotamod
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With compression being the prime target now, please read tail end of each thread for the last few days concentrating on my decompression posts. I have only been using Drmn4ea's cut line black. Someone should try one of the highly compressed white raws converted using boodle's raw2rgb. The quickest comparison is one of resulting size using icea1 (read the threads). I think I have limited it to tiff or jpeg, but both have repititions of 3 bytes rather than 9 bytes. Perhaps with a 500 extended dynamic range there is another byte in 24 bit RGB making it a 32 bit LRGB (Luminance corrected rgb) and adding that to an input before compression could somehow cause a 9 byte pattern instead of 3 bytes.
12-13-2004 07:32:46

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) dakotamod
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A timed news release may not be within our power. But if it is, let's try to agree, maybe even vote on what picture to link/post. I would suggest that until we finalize a vote, that the individual who took the picture owns the picture. If they "submit" it for "News" than they agree that anyone can copy, alter ... and post a link or the picture itself, but only after we have agreed that it is "THE" picture on a new thread (yet to be created). I have created a new thread Photo - 1 2 many 4 all, for submissions. I think these should be limited to decompressed pictures pulled from flash - what do others think? We may want to use a good looking converted raw, as soon as decompression is solved and not wait for a good pulled flash photo.
12-13-2004 09:48:42

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) bentfork
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This isnt worthy of the pictures thread so I will stick it here. Using boodles raw2bmp I reprocessed the poutine image.

"A take-out poutine on newsprint"
thumbnail jpg, fullsize jpg

There is a bmp file there but I dont want to link to it directly as it is 3250 kB, just s/jpg/bmp/ if you want to see the bmp version. The colors aren't perfect but considering I have done zero tweeking in photoshop it looks great, tasty even. Go bilinear interpolation!

12-13-2004 12:00:27

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) taytrr
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I've been looking around for info on the image format and it seems that the autobrite feature is 12 bits and in one program (sorry I forget which) I saw an option to either use the camera's correction or not. I was just looking at the Fu ji Fine pics raw converter (also a SMaL) and there is a file called "FinePixRGB18.ICC". I don't have the ability to write any code to test but if someone does -- maybe stripping off 12 bits might bring the pictures in view? Does the 18 possible mean anything (like rgb at 18 bits each?)
12-13-2004 21:18:35

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) toml
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<blockquote>
toml above indicated he has a "ready to recycle" camera with LaMSSMaL id. There is a chance that it may still have files that can be downloaded with $54. toml, if you have questions on how - post them in questions. Note that a ready to recylce has not been recycled - given a new id and blanked out pictures. It has just finished allowing a machine to access the flash. My theory is that after a network connection returns a good string (in response to camera serial #) the id is changed, perhaps type is changed also (his 3 finger gave 30) and the camera then allows command $54. Seems I saw where someone else in an earlier thread (109 posts or 306 posts) had forced a camera into this mode. Can someone scan and report back details here in suggestions. Also I hope someone can test $54 on one of these by just downloading one of the standard .TFT layed out on morcheebas page and of course if succesful immediately followed by FIRMWARE.BIN and an unquestionable discovery in discoveries. Here is his page of file names and layouts: http://www.maushammer.com/systems/dakotadigital/lcd-flash.html also look at his usb page in links for exact format of $54.
</blockquote>

Id really rather send this camera to someone who is already doing it... :) But if I have to go with it myself, it'll be monday or later before I can build the cable and whatnot. I'll check in to see if anyone wants me to mail them the camera in the meantime.

12-14-2004 08:52:57

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) paganpat999
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Dakota Single-Use Digital Cameras PV2, Lot of 4. For cameras included in auction. The auction ends in a couple of days


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1085&item=3860521892&rd=1&tc=photo

12-14-2004 10:37:34

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) dakotamod
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Thanks, paganpat999 for not releasing any news. Let's try to hold off a little longer till we have a user friendly capability.

If we don't find any Autobrite(tm), we have the ability to create our own extended dynamic - just write software to take 3 different exposures (long, medium, short) and then merge the results adding an L to RGB. There is a huge opportunity for those who have time to explore such a modification.

If we can't break the compression, I am sure someone can create a new firmware that uses a better compression.

12-15-2004 06:22:06

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) j_tetazoo
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I don't recall anyone posting this previously...

I found the following cam lib for gphoto:

http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/gphoto/libgphoto2/camlibs/smal/

I downloaded the handful of files there and looked through them. There are some juicy tid-bits with regards to USB commands and such.

Also, there is some image manipulation stuff, but it looks to me like it's expecting the raw data to be uncompressed Bayer filter values, which we know is not the case with the .RAW files we're seeing.

12-15-2004 15:01:08

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) j_tetazoo
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Ack. Wish I could retract that last post. I found a bunch of references to gphoto in the old PV2 thread. Looks like work from that angle dead-ended back in September/October. Nevermind.
12-15-2004 15:14:45

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) dakotamod
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brite_eye, I thought the queen offed with your head. Good to see current world rulers do not make it a practice anymore. If only the down trodden could avoid such extreme measures against relatively innocent victims. Please stop posting on decompression thread unless you have something to contribute other than criticism directed at me. By the way, I did stop this afternoon at radioshack to buy 1.3mp red on sale for $39. I could not leave without also purchasing 2mp $79 blue with lcd and docking station; now I have 2 more SMaL cameras in addition to a Ritz red, 2 CVS reds, a CVS blue, and another CVS red I gave as a white elephant gift at an investment party this weekend (which will require some hand holding). I hope to get new flatfotos working with Drmn4ea’s poker (they have the same 9 bit pattern). While eye_brite's prime observation is very interesting, I find it totally useless. As to thin ice, I have been windsurfing on thin ice for last 13 years and don’t need to find any tracks – I make my own. Hope you all like my new 2mp Autobrite pictures showing slat lines on my house and a couple of my ice boards laying against my 8th degree polynomial egg shaped pond dome. I’ll be posting a link to photos on photo.net soon. The blue is simply amazing – just like its rich brothers it has a continuous display before you click. It was very cold and my images show me shaking (its very tiny for my old hands – but incredibly cute). Thanks so much j_tetazoo for pointing me back to that earlier link; hope new ones still produce same 9 bit repeating pattern.

If a SMaL person is watching these threads, please inform us now if we will be violating any patents by decompressing your poorly compressed images.

12-15-2004 18:04:03

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) brite_eye
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j_tetazoo, I awoke with the thought of a raw file SD card. Correct me if am wrong, but raw files in this case are simply copies of compression we have been dumping at $12000, what we really need is the 3.14M version of $120000 (extra 0) before it is compressed. I think there is more in sdram memory beyond what we are allowed to read. If that is true there is no need for a flash card or reader. Perhaps more poking may open access - morcheeba, Drmn4ea, and other disassemblers can you find how to get past $2FFFFF barrier?
12-17-2004 07:36:30

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) brite_eye
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boodle, I downloaded bus hound, but have fallen behind on several other tasks. I have 3 cameras of pictures that I can now process and am keenly interested in ones of sisters from a huge family with more than a dozen siblings. Motivated by work of John Peri http://www.photo.net/shared/community-member?user_id=470386 I took several shots of individual cocktail holding sisters standing under an exit sign in front of a glass door, hoping to demonstrate Autobrite®, after asking them to imagine not having any clothes on. boodle, Please obtain a Blue FlatFoto for yourself, it will be worth it 4 all, if not for you, and it may even acquire historic value based on your efforts. I'll add you to the top of my guest list if I ever get invited for a stay at Balnagown Castle pictured above my biography http://www.photo.net/shared/community-member?user_id=1135234 Now I know I'm Drmn.
12-17-2004 08:46:41

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) brite_eye
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There is a trial version of ArcSoft Photbase available that is more current than on my FlatFoto CD:
http://www.arcsoft.com/en/support/downloads/downloadview.asp?downloadid=216 This requires a twain driver that, if my testing was correct, needs to be more current than smxxxx files from Radioshack site. There are other sites fuji, foxz2, that may have a more current smxxxx driver that works.

scriblle, during acquire there is an option to select format as jpg, tif, ... (don't remember others now). What type would be most desireable to run your signature tests on to aid in identifying Autobrite(tm)?

12-17-2004 11:42:55

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) brite_eye
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Can Drmn4ea or someone else get his poker to work with smalxxxx drivers (google for most current dated one) instead of libusb driver. That will eliminate the need to switch drivers mid stream. Not sure this is legal, also someone needs to create a "Legal - 1 2 many 4 all" thread.
12-17-2004 12:27:05

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) boodle
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I have installed the flatfoto drivers for the 1.3 MP camera from radioshack's site. I changed it to recognize the dakota red camera. It recognizes it fine, windows recognizes it as an "imaging device" and it shows up under twain devices. It won't download pictures though. I think the new drivers are the only ones that can do that. But to unlock the camera (with the poker) you still have to have libusb installed don't you? or can you just include the libusb dll's with the .exe and not have to install it? With that driver I can still use usbpoker on it before I try to use the TWAIN part.
12-17-2004 12:53:44

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) brite_eye
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boodle, Try the foxz2 driver http://www.che-ez.com/download/index.html it also uses SMaL kit 4 with a 2mp imager. It contains the lines:
; Next entries are needed for UI extension
HKCR,CLSID\{EDB8B35D-C15F-4E45-9658-50D7F8ADDB56},,,"WIA UI Extension"

I selected something with WIA in it when using ArcSoft Photobase 4.0 after unlocking with Drmn4ea's poker and libusb.inf . Add a new line at top similar to 23 and 24 (they appear twice in lines) and also one at the bottom for your type. I think the libusb stuff was ported from libgphoto and may be out of date. Should be just minor tweaks to drmns poker to make it work with a different driver but all thats over my head. You may also need ArcSoft Photobase I posted above for some as yet unknown reason.

12-17-2004 13:15:45

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) boodle
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Alright, I'll mess with those. My ID has changed to LAMSSMAL0000. I'm pretty sure it changed sometime after I installed those radio shack drivers. I think all I've done with those drivers was: plug it in, unlock it, request pictures by twain, unplug, plug it in, request pictures (without unlock), go to "Camera->configuration" in the flatfoto applicataion, then it froze. So somewhere in there I think is where it resets the ID.
12-17-2004 13:22:27

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) scribble
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Bentfork --Both tif and bmp give you accurate reading if you are using the info tool of photoshop or something like it to measure pixel intensity. The jpg compression routine in irfran screws the intensities up. If you are using ImageJ to look for patterns in the z direction, save in bmp because it can't load tif files. You can download ImageJ from http://rsb.info.nih.gov/ij/. I recommend it since you can use the line measurements tools to help locate the hex addresses of interesting feature.

scribble

12-17-2004 14:41:06

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) bentfork
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looks like the smal*.dlls have some logging

registry path path : HKLM\System\CurrentControlSet\Control\StillImage\Debug values: 'DebugFileSizeLimit' and 'DebugFlags' both are DWORDS

Turning these on should get you debug info on the 'decompression' of the images. I would really like to see what is going on. I cant seem to get the usbdriver swap working here, so I cant test it here yet.

12-18-2004 01:14:04

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) boodle
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I was able to capture the data going in/out of the camera. I'll post interesting parts of it in the next day or two, but they may not matter. I'm pretty sure all that passes over to the drivers is the .raw files saved on the camera. So the simplest way to get all of the pictures may be to just request the full 16 mb of flash then get the .raw files out of that then process them. It will probably be faster to request picture by picture, as it seems these drivers do. I'm still working through it, trying to figure it out. But it looks like the magic has to happen on the software side to make these things into pictures.
12-18-2004 03:04:37

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) boodle
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Actually, that's probably wrong. It seems like every picture requested returns the .raw file plus something that's 2243093156 bytes long every time. I'm not sure what that is yet.
12-18-2004 03:24:22

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) brite_eye
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boodle, I have deinstalled all my FlatFoto apps and drivers, and installed the foxz2 driver and ArcSoft trial, but I am having what I think is the same problem bentfork is swapping drivers. Please give a brief summary indicating what driver you start with and use to unlock, then what driver and software you use to obtain pictures.
12-18-2004 05:26:23

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) brite_eye
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My CVS cameras do not have same compressed saturated whites (can't even find uncompressed FFs) starting with 00 55 21 FE FF ... so I am going to try to capture and analyze compression using 1.3 Red Flat (still guessing that PV2s do a quick and partial uncompress just to get a preview for current shot). I will be starting with 640x480 resolution. Note that adding an 256mb SD card to these $39 cameras will allow approx 1401 pictures! Thats an awful lot for such a tiny camera (I know I can have fun clandestinely with this one). I am not recommending the following, but some may find additional $30 off (costing $39-$30 = $9) unresistable if buying MS imaging software within a month: http://www.microsoft.com/products/imaging/order.aspx . Hopefully someone else will obtain one of these flatfotos to aid our efforts - and give me a chance to sleep at night.
12-18-2004 11:33:21

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) boodle
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I am starting with the libusb driver. I'm using version 0.1.8.0. I use this to unlock the camera. Then After it is unlocked, I go to Device Manager and click "Update Driver." I update it to the foxz2 driver. All I modified in that was to change the PID from 24 to 27.
12-18-2004 11:35:50

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) brite_eye
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boodle, and then?? the most important part obtaining pictures - what next?? you mentioned gimp. Did you download with MP album. Please post some pictures, but first give the rest of us a chance to follow your lead!
12-18-2004 11:46:57

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) brite_eye
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bentfork, I have turned debug on, where do I look for files?
12-18-2004 12:15:52

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 1 times) boodle
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Sorry about that, then I open Photoshop and select the Import button and select "Che-ez! Foxz." I would immagine this will work with pretty much any photo editing program that can import pictures from twain sources. It didn't seem to like The Gimp though. It would try to download all the pictures, but it would stop after the first. If I had told it to delete pictures after they've downloaded, it would download one and delete two. Since I switched to Photoshop, I haven't had any problems like that. Like I said though, I doubt that it can only be Photoshop. The Arcsoft program will probably work too.
12-18-2004 12:21:48

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) brite_eye
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Thanks boodle, I'll get back to cheez and my CVS blue (I was selecting wia-CVS Blue at the bottom), but now to save time I am working with 1.3 red radioshack. I am also wondering about the views on my photos - Who is interested in Pete Karmanos shaking my hand, I had hoped more people would click on my windsurfing photos. A very nice feature of photo.net is view count display - click on folder name then details http://www.photo.net/photodb/member-photos?user_id=1135234&include=all
12-18-2004 12:57:51

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) bentfork
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brite_eye: More on debuging WIA (windows image aquisition) http://www.osr.com/ddk/still/wia_gs_1hgp.htm

It turnes out i got the key only half right. it is : HKLM\System\CurrentControlSet\Control\StillImage\Debug\MODULE_NAME\DebugFlags
Where MODULE_NAME is a dll ( probably: wiaservc.dll, but maybe: smalcnhj.dll, or some other small dll ) Set DebugFlags value to 4 ( trace ).

The log file should in the windowsfoler/wiadebug.log If it is large, email it to my gmail account (its easy to guess my username) and I'll post it.

This is what I know so far: The twain file 'cheezFoxzTwain.ds' is a dll with one entry point DS_ENTRY. It is called by the application implimenting twain (photoshop, gimp, etc). Then i think it calls some of the other smal*.dll's to get the usb stuff done... but I havent traced all of that yet.

12-18-2004 13:10:11

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) bentfork
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Do you click close on the usbPoker, or just: openpoker, openusb, unlock, switch drivers, open photoshop?

I was hoping that the libusb 'filter' driver would allow us to do that without switching drivers. I guess I have more reading to do before I figure that one out.

Anyway GOOD WORK! 90% of the way there.

12-18-2004 13:16:49

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) Synlor
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WAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! I got my pictures finally! I bought one of the first versions in D.C. 7 months ago and have been waiting, finally it is here! Great job everyone.... Drmn4ae, boodle, scribble, morcheeba, and anyone else I haven't mentioned, congratulations! The quality is pretty damn good.

Here is how I did it, though I have been playing around with various thigns before so it may be slightly differant.. I've installed several versions of drivers and such.
I started with the libusb drivers, used the poker program to unlock it, after I read the 13 bytes confirming that I unlocked it I changed the driver over to the foxz2. I opened Photobase, did the get picture routine, and tried the WIA foxz2 driver, nothing came up but I think it might be necessary to try it first... not sure. Then I tried the driver called just Foxz (this may ahve been left over from previous driver installs and such), and whamo all there. Just had to hit download and I had all my pictures :)

Here is a sample one taken at Mount Vernon (Washington's home): http://devcast.dcemulation.com/animals.png

Thank you everyone who has contributed, this is truely incredible, my weekend has been made :)

12-18-2004 13:55:24

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) brite_eye
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Synlor, WOW. Please post a note in "Success - 1 2 many 4 all" and another note in "1 2 many 4 all dummies" and again in "Photo 1 2 many 4 all". Place a back slash before your links and validate before confirming that link works. Great Job! I would also like your permission to post in my gallery on photo.net (punishment for forgetting me in your credits).
12-18-2004 14:35:07

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) Synlor
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Sorry for leaving you out ;) making me do a bunch of work reposting these things. :) Ya go ahead and use that picture and stuff. This is all just so exciting, $20 digital camera that has nice quality.... all that is left is making it look purrty.... I hooked up a female USB B connector.. I think that was the one.... but ya anyways, I cut a hole for it, but I think I want it closer to the batteries... so epoxy that hole, and the other one where a "regulular" connector would, paint it, and wham I'm done. :)
12-18-2004 15:15:43

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) mike
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Synor
What driver version # / date are you using....do you have a link ???/
12-18-2004 17:12:17

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) brite_eye
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Thanks again Synlor. Please provide some pictures of your purrty female.

All others, We need some good cables or a simple method to make one, not every one can solder. The palm things are a real pain - but without any pain there is no gain. I think I know how to reset cameras to LaMSSMaL if industry reacts by adding more access codes than 1. Please could someone verify that my CVS camera was reset by switching the wires as in an old post by mike. I think his USB cable was fine, just erroneously plugged wires on the mother board (I initially had that problem with an original blue). When I was having difficulty with my CVS camera, I saw mike's post and switched my wires according to his color scheme. I hope this provides the ultimate trick:

"all usb cables are not equal
mine... green to 10 red to 9 black to 8 white to 6
red & black are biggest wires... cable may have been made wrong???" - nothing wrong with cable - look at your mother board mike.

12-18-2004 17:17:31

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) brite_eye
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mike,
Try the foxz2 driver link I posted a few back from here:

http://www.che-ez.com/download/index.html it also uses SMaL kit 4 with a 2mp imager. It contains the lines:
; Next entries are needed for UI extension
HKCR,CLSID\{EDB8B35D-C15F-4E45-9658-50D7F8ADDB56},,,"WIA UI Extension"

I hope it stays posted for a long time in Japan, just click cancel and ignore special characters.

12-18-2004 17:27:38

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) mike
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brite_eye
I have downloaded both foxz2 and foxz but the inf with foxz is either bad or compressed ....
and I thought synor used foxz
12-18-2004 18:57:23

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) brite_eye
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mike, I think you need to run the setup.exe after unzipping and direct smxxxxx.xxx to a specific location. You might want to also install an updated trial of winzip.
12-18-2004 21:27:04

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) ForkBoy
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I was able to extract images using Synor's method, but my images where all shades of blue.
http://mysite.verizon.net/forkboy/de18^0009.jpg

Any ideas?

To make the working with the camera easier I've written a user friendly utility to unlock
the camera and download the 16Meg flash.
http://mysite.verizon.net/forkboy/PV2Tool.zip

The files can be extracted from the 16Meg image using this freeware utility:
http://www.softwarium.com/divwin.html

I'll post the MSVC++ 6 source after I've cleaned it up a bit.

I'm very interested in decoding the raw images directly and being able to write to the
camera - It would be great to customize the .tft files.

ForkBoy (at)
verizon (dot)
net

12-19-2004 13:52:35

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) brite_eye
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There seems to be problems with getting wrong drivers, I have been rebooting each time after first being sure libusb drive is active and unplugging cable, and always requesting Dont Search then Have Disk. Different releases, different photo software, different drivers seem to produce varying quality. But I haven't had anything that blue - mostly just grainy looking. I think you need recent png software to properly capture Autobrite(tm) info.

My earlier problem with only getting photos downloaded from reset LaMSSMaL cameras has mysteriously disappeared! And my suggestion of rewiring to match mike's color to pin did not cause a reset.

12-19-2004 14:51:13

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) boodle
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While looking through the log I took while downloading some pictures, here is one of the commands:

4C 61 4D 53 40 00 00 00 40 F3 09 00 80 01 00 54 LaMS@...@ó..€..T
00 49 4D 47 5F 30 31 37 37 2E 52 41 57 00 00 .IMG_0177.RAW..

From looking through this log, it looks like the dCBWTag is used as a counter-the driver probably keeps commands that it sent referenced by this dCBWTag value, because after you send it and request the 13 byte return, the dCBWTag is whatever the original was. In the driver, this always increments by one each time.

So with the $54 command, the dCBWDataTransferLength is set to the file size (in this case, the .RAW file was $9F340 long.) In all the reads I have seen, byte 13 is $01. Then the rest of the command is obvious (if not, ask. Use http://www.maushammer.com/systems/dakotadigital/lcd-usb.html as a reference.)

Before doing this, you need to first chdir to /, then DCIM, then RAW.

Also, command $5E appears to check settings. I'm not sure about this yet, but that's what it looks like. It always responds with 4 bytes then the 13 byte command status wrapper.

12-19-2004 15:13:55

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) scribble
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Forkboy--I have no idea what the software did but what you ended up with was a jpeg with only a a blue channel plus the obviously scrambled luminosity information.

I've been working on a couple other projects for the last few days and have lost track of the details of what is going on. Do we get only jpegs with the foxx drivers or can we get both the raw and the jpg out of the camera. If you can get both comparing the grey scale images obtained using the raw converter of irfran and the distorted jpegs might be interesting.

12-19-2004 16:21:56

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) brite_eye
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scribble, Have you looked at the successes, any sign of autobrite(tm)? What kind of transformation happened to my original stop sign (both uncompressed and processed compress are at the Red Ritz link in Success thread). The .raw files that are now being pulled from flash are simply what morcheeba found months ago - a copy of what we were seeing in sdram at $12000. I think we are also getting another 2M either along with the compressed file or it expands to 3.14 Meg.
12-19-2004 17:05:21

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) scribble
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Clarify if I'm wrong. The dark stopsign was converted from a raw file with PhotoshopCS using a process that no one has come forward to explain. The lighter stopsign was extracted and converted using the foxx converter with the debayerizing and other corrections done on the computer rather than in the camera.

If both these assumpsions are correct, the dark stopsign image was not converted properly. The color balance was not correctly set and the gamma correction was left at 1. If it had been correctly converted and then saved with less jpeg conversion, it would have been the better image.

The lighter foxx image was far to agressively postprocessed. The color balance is more correct but the saturations is a little too high. It's also jpeg compressed too much. But the real problems is the sharpening.

You can see what I mean if you gamma convert the dark image and zoom in on the stopsign. It's a bit on the noisy side but otherwise it' s as clean or maybe a bit cleaner than I've seen in the earlier pure digitals.

The stopsign in the foxx image is a mass of artifacts. The x2 to 3x increase in chromatic noise; the black traces around the letters, the white halo down the post are the most obvious indications of far too agressive sharpening.

The 3x increase in file size is from the converstion of a 8bit debayerized greyscale image into a 24 bit extrapolated color image. Each pixel now has three values, R,G and B

Finally, there wasn't any signs of autobrite effects in either image.

12-19-2004 20:08:01

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) scribble
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On my raw question--can you now or will you be able to have your 25 images served up either raw or jpg. If only jpg and we can't be able to better than we're do now with the foxx software, we're limited to 4 by 6 prints. If you can have the images raw, with good converters, skills and the proper images, 8 by 12 prints are possible.
12-19-2004 21:34:43

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) Synlor
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With the photobase software you can selec thte format you want to read of the camera with, and if you choose tif you get the 3.4 meg file, but if you read jpegs its a lot slower.
12-19-2004 22:04:01

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) brite_eye
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scribble, I really appreciate your analysis of my stop signs. I keep looking for Autobrite and you keep pulling down the shade. Pretty soon I am going to have to agree, if not now. I am still giving it about a 1% chance based on the cutline all black containing an extra 23 repetions of 9 bit pattern (52187 - 23 = 52164, 52164 = 1288*864*3 / 64). Those 23 could be an extended dynamic for 24 areas 6x4 of 214(1284/6) by 215(864/4) pixels. Thanks for wave theory Drmn4ea, now instead of 8x8 blocks I am looking at continuous wave patterns pulled every 64 bytes. This even works well for saturated whites - 1280/64 = 20, 20*3(rgb) = 60 repetitions of 9 bits. Could be way off on all of that - should know more when I try different sizes in FlatFotos to see if it holds up (hoping for a blacker noncut black by using flash off feature). As to your question on 25 raw vs jpg, If compression is lossless than we may still have a raw image, just guessing some more but if random memory patterns are from a repeatable generator each image may actually contain more data than it physically does by referencing large segments of those patterns (kind of like fractal compressions). I do not believe there is any jpg, zlib, png on camera - I suspect they are used in drivers to convert a decompressed (if lossless - a raw) image as part of the download process. I can still attempt other formats during download for my stop sign if you have suggestions and are not sick of that stop sign (I have been trying to make sure to uncheck the automatic delete during downloads from camera). If that isn't rambling than it ain't. Please visit dakotamod in Annoying thread occaisionally and be sure to exercise his new DMCA version of YMCA over the holidays.
12-19-2004 22:35:23

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) brite_eye
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I noticed in new gphoto released just 4 days ago, the following are listed as new features:
spca50x - Added support for Dakota disposable cameras
spca50x - Fix for gcc 2.95 build (bug #105586)

Why bother with those old blues, when new reds have an LCD. I hope it doesn't take a year for new drivers, maybe the s on the end of "disposable camera" means they have something for us?

12-19-2004 23:20:15

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) mike
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WELL..... using CVS BLUE I can download firmware all day no problems...
I cannot get anthing to happen with Foxz/Foxz2/Ds6628 drivers
other hanging/waiting? or not allowed in bootloader
cannot find any FlatFoto 2mp drivers..
I don't know what magic others are using ,,,but I can't find it......
msw101144@hotmail.com
12-21-2004 09:37:50

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) dakotamod
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Screw Drivers! Don't bother they seem to work only in surprise mode. My FlatFoto 2.0 driver packaged with radioshack camera always works fine. The others are hit and miss, like hammering nails.

To all, time would be far better spent building one of the applications requested on new Applications thread. Your pictures have waited a long time, what's a few more days.
12-21-2004 10:31:39

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) brite_eye
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I became annoyed with Photobase 4.5 trial when it somehow restricted itself to just one of my 3 instances (must be checking network card). So now I am succesfully using Irfan (thanks scribble) on 2 of 3 (reminds me of 7 of 9 - Don't you think I've been made a match for her with my camera-vision Cyborg #1248). I've been feeding my head hacking this camera so much that it has now popped in behind my pupil.

Blue FlatFoto .inf file has "Digital Camera" in quotes for a bunch of TypeIDs 25, 29, 2A, 2C, 2D, 40 none any near here. I have added a 27 with "CVS Red" in quotes; But "Digital Camera" seems to persist in Twain Select list for photo processing software and it is THE one that works! Why does "Digital Camera" work when it is not specified for 27 or even 2B (Red CVS is 2B, but never detected by drivers - only Vulcan never pinch is 2B - all else is not 2B). My guess is that one of the other non inf SMaL files gets copied into Windows/?system?? and remains no matter how hatter mad I get trying to remove Blue FlatFoto drivers. I would appreciate a reasonable explanation of the above windows quirks.

12-24-2004 09:29:57

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) ForkBoy
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Brite_Eye,

For Windows 2000 and XP

Try looking in the root windows folder for a hidden folder named "inf"
This folder contains cached .inf and .pnf files that windows uses.

Windows thinks it knows better than you do on which drivers to use.

If you search these files you should be able to find the .inf that windows is using for the camera.

These files usually have the OEMXX.INF naming format.

If you ever want to get rid of cached driver .inf files remove the OEMXX.INF file and the companion OEMXX.PNF file.

There is also a log file named "setupapi.log" in the windows directory that provides good information as to what windows is doing when installing drives.

ForkBoy

12-24-2004 12:02:09

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) morcheeba
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brite_eye: >I hope it doesn't take a year for new drivers, maybe the s on the end of "disposable camera" means they have something for us?
I wrote the mods to that driver, so no, no special meaning.

everyone: what seems to be the consensus on the best driver to use? It seems like the blue flat_foto; this doesn't seem available for download. How about the fox drivers?

12-24-2004 13:21:42

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) brite_eye
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There are 2-4 other files along with .inf after unzipping drivers. If someone can point me to which one is used for Twain Selection, I can do some compares, disassemblies ... and maybe provide a patch if there is something simple, but I suspect a major difference. Perhaps others could disassemble and determine differences between foxz, foxz2, 1.3 red flatfoto, and others which are available for download.
12-24-2004 13:50:28

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) mike
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I picked up a blue flat photo......
I have not tried it on the RED cvs yet......
I did connect 1 time to Blue CVS but displayed Accord Digital Camera....Hmmm!!!
but could not extract anything.....
Tried using usbsniff while extracting from flat foto ...but have something screwy
going on....too many drivers being displayed and can't capture libusb....
...tried putting blue flatphoto on w98 but cannot get driver to recognize type 27
...inf changes look ok.....I had the same prob trying to use 1.3 mp

maybe sombody can come up with a driver to emulate blue flat and use pull in the
raw files....thats way out of my ball park........
I would not rush out and get a blue flatfoto yet......

you photo trekies just need to figure it out....
and we need to know how to set/reinitialize picture counter

12-24-2004 15:39:08

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) brite_eye
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mike, changing blue flatfoto .inf file does not work for me either. However once blue drivers are installed changing a red flatfoto .inf file from radioshack download to include 27 reds, 28 CVS blues does work. I think it works with a foxz download .inf also. Oddly windows still knows about atleast one piece of blue flatfoto driver files and uses it to make it all work. Please feel free (mike only) to email me with details of your frustrations. Here again are results from Vulcan nerve pinch for red and blue flatfotos:
Blue _Red
0006 0004 Hardware
6620 4380 Firmware
0029 0015 Type

I do not know what the levels are for Cheezy, Scientific, Logitech ... , but if any are equal to or above 6410 for Ritz and 6520 for CVS then those will probably work if anyone can figure out how to keep windows from screwing drivers.

12-24-2004 17:05:43

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) Drmn4ea
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@mike, brite_eye: Besides the .infs, it looks like USB PIDs are embedded in some of the Windows driver binaries themselves - presumably so they can speak in different USB tongues depending on the type of camera plugged in. (mine shows up as Legend Digital Camera using Foxz2) Some of them might not talk to our dispose-o-cams without some open-heart surgery. The Foxz2 one has a long list of PIDs along with their device names and manufacturers, including a bunch of entries marked "Reserved[0x####]".

As far as the compression format goes, would it be less painful to figure it out by disassembling one of the win32 drivers, rather than the camera firmware? Would the person who disassembled it have to explain in words/pictures/(non-code)/etc. how it works, and leave the actual coding (re-implementation) to someone else?

Poking in the Foxz2 with a hexeditor:
Looks like there is a LOT of postprocessing going on here. Whitebalance, floating point noise, sharpening, even one named "starkiller" (presumably to reduce star-shaped halos around bright things?). There's a YcBcR-to-RGB routine thrown in, but I think that's specific to streaming video (webcam) modes of other SMaL cams.

Interestingly, I see the string "Sorry, there are legal restrictions on arithmetic coding" (appears to be part of the JPEG stuff).

12-25-2004 18:41:05

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) mike
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I have a 2meg zip of bulkin/out of image download from flatfoto blue if
anyone is interested....the pictures are crappy...can't hold my hands still....
it takes to long from time you press button until flash,,,may take it back....
12-25-2004 19:43:49

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) brite_eye
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mike, try using self timer mode or bright outdoor light (worked to soften my shake, also holding in front with arms outstretched and braced on something looking at LCD to frame picture helps). Have you been able to unlock a 27,28 and switch to 1.3 radioshack driver to get pictures off Pure Digitals?

Drmn4ea and others, Can anyone identify for sure that all necessary decompression code resides in just one place - inside camera or inside a driver (it may be split between both in a horrendously skewed manner). Why oh Why does Fife wish so much strife - they already have a patent on electronic hardware.

12-25-2004 21:12:35

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) binaryweaver
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OK. I'm using a CVS blue. I modified some drivers for a FOXZ camera and got the blue to detect. I downloaded and ran Forkboy's PV2Tool and was able to download the 16 meg flash image off from the camera. No problem.

From reading the posts on this board, I see that we can also write to the camera. How about this idea,...

Download the FLASH image from a virgin camera and save it. Then use the camera until it's nearly full, download the RAW images to the PC and reflash the camera with the original virgin image file. Wouldn't that reset the picture counters as well? The only obstacle would be decoding the RAW images which seems to be an ongoing battle.

I don't remember reading about it, but if the camera is completely full, will it still accept read/write commands sent to it?

12-26-2004 22:47:58

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) sailpix
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brite_eye... I've been looking at the patent application that I found and looking at the RAW files.

So far the RAW files seem consistent with the patent app - though I haven't worked through the details yet to prove or disprove this. Basically the patent app. seems to describe a hardware mechanism for losslessly compressing the data coming from an image sensor and writing it to FLASH memory. It doesn't describe the lossless compression mechanism with enough detail to easily reproduce it or write a decoder... but, more on that later.

I think that SMaL has made some reasonable design decisions... For many digital cameras the goal is to take pictures and then write JPEG or TIFF files to an accessible flash memory card. But, I think SMaL's approach is to take pictures and save them with "enough" compression on the camera - then rely on driver software to convert the images to TIFF or JPEG later. While the described arithemetic coding is fairly complicated, it is no where near the complexity of JPEG - and maybe better than the compression schemes available in TIFF.

The patent app. covers a method where data is compressed as it is read from the image sensor - in one pass. This is a) fast and b) un-complicated enough that it can be implemented in their custom hardware. While the compression isn't as good as lossy JPEG, it just needs to be good enough to store the advertised number of images on the camera's memory. The real complexity (i.e. JPEG) can be done later in a software driver.

The uncompressed data would be around 3.15Mb (1280 x 860 x 24-bit image) - but the compressed files of the RAW bayer image data come out under 650Kb. This is pretty good. If we figure out the compression then we'll be able to take an uncompressed image and try compressing it ourselves (using JPEG, TIFF, etc.) to see how good this RAW compression really is. But considering that most other compression schemes can't be done in hardware easily... this is probably a pretty good design compromise.

Also, if SMaL develops a unique compression scheme then they _might_ be able to patent it - that seems to be part of the "design" here.

I've read the compression patent app. a good bit. It doesn't seem - to me - to be well written. There's a lot of background and discourse about the mechanism - but at a number of points it provides general "hand waving" at presumably well-known arithmetic coding techniques instead of actual descriptions of what is going on. Also, the claims part - which I think is the "meat" of the thing - seems to have the same paragraph copied multiple times in a row. Perhaps this is how patents need to be written, but it seems like a much less clear description of the thing being patented than the other patents I've been reading to try to understand arithmetic coding. I wonder if it will be granted...

Assuming that this patent app. describes the encryption in the Dakota Digital PV2, there is definitely a gap to be bridged between what's "described" in the patent app. and what's implemented in the camera. The patent app. may be intentionally vague in order to cover a range of specific implementations. Or, the patent application may be intentionally obfuscated in order to avoid revealing their product's compression mechanism (though that seems at cross purposes with getting a patent).

- sailpix

12-26-2004 23:19:10

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) brite_eye
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With 3 instances of XP on a 42G drive partitioned to allow backups of each and thus only 7G per instance I have been long over due for a larger drive. I picked up a new Maxtor 160G 7200RPM with 8M cache from Microcenter today. I plan to start with a pristine XP with no sp1 or sp2, obtain latest downloads from my recent success using only freely available software. At that point I would like if possilbe to setup a netmeeting with several others so they can watch as I obtain quality photos. Is that possible? - I'll need some instruction on how to disable fire wall. It may take several hours or all night to get XP up on a new drive - the last time I encountered great difficulty with SDLC connection and off brand display card on homemade PC. I could perform the task using Windows ME if that is more popular than XP. Can anyone explain/whether the above can work? Or better why doesn't someone else besides Synlor or myself just press the right magic buttons during somewhat unrepeatable set of events (I still don't know why I am occaisonally asked to reboot after switching drivers).
12-27-2004 18:14:58

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) bartoni
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morcheeba,

A minor question, with an implied suggestion:
Your website's checksum chart indicates that you summed all the bytes (or words) of firmware.bin, apparently including the checksum byte(s) themelves. Assuming the checksums are the last byte(s) of the file, shouldn't those sums exclude the checksum values? Put differently, should the checksum sum the bytes(words) up 0x1f1fd, not 0x1f1ff as listed? Also it seems unlikely that the checksum is the sum of 4 byte words, given the limits of the V8 and that only two bytes follow the SMaL at the file's end.

12-28-2004 16:03:29

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) morcheeba
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Bingo, thanks bartoni. You just saved me a camera!

byte checksum 0..1f1fd = 00cb50d8, 2's complement= ff34af28, 1's = ff34af27
msb-first 16-bit checksum = 661ef679, 2's complement= 99e10987, 1's = 99e10986
lsb-first 16-bit checksum = 65fd325f, 2's complement= 9a02cda1, 1's = 9a02cda0
byte checkxor 0..1f1fd = 00000098, 2's complement= ffffff68, 1's = ffffff67
msb-first 16-bit checkxor = 00002fb7, 2's complement= ffffd049, 1's = ffffd048
lsb-first 16-bit checkxor = 0000b72f, 2's complement= ffff48d1, 1's = ffff48d0

The 50d8 is the code at the end.

Traditionally checksums are the complements of sums (1's complement or 2's complement) and are embedded in the stream to make the sum of the whole stream add up to an even number. The nice thing is that the data can be treated equally - the sum goes over an even number of blocks. But lots of people don't do that in practice, as we see above.

Binaryweaver - I found that the delete-file command, when applied to picture files*, makes the counter go back up -- so no need for a complete reflash.

(*yep, I accidently deleted one of my system files - a little-used TFT image)

12-29-2004 11:35:31

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) morcheeba
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How to turn off the flash - a 25-cent solution.

I was taking a picture this morning, and the camera wanted to turn on the flash. The problem was that the window was slightly foggy outside the field of view, and this would catch the flash light. I got some neat abstract patterns, but nothing from the outside. I tried sticking my thumb over the flash, but I got a flesh-colored blur in the picture. So, I used a quarter to block it -- it worked great!!

01-05-2005 20:57:01

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) binaryweaver
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I wasn't quite sure which thread to post this in, but I've got another design
for the front label. Haven't posted this on my main site yet,... maybe tomorrow.

http://www.demanufacturing.com/pv2/front-candidate1.jpg

01-06-2005 23:07:02

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) morcheeba
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that looks good, too!! I hadn't thought of skinning these cameras - glad you thought of it!
01-07-2005 00:39:30

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) Ansel_Adams
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Skinning the camera, what a brite idea! I guess if you printed that on sticker paper and then cut it out with precision, it would work.
01-07-2005 16:21:55

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) taytrr
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ForkBoy, oh god of the pv2tool and tft viewer, please port the conversion code into your app and post. I'd be glad to beta test (as would others I'm sure).
01-07-2005 18:13:36

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) ForkBoy
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As soon as we understand how to decode a .raw file I will add code to extract images.

Maybe I'm out of touch, but I don't think we know how to do this yet?

Until then, I was thinking of adding the following:

1. The ability to replace .tft files
2. The ability to modify .dat files
3. The ability to extract / add / move .raw files
4. The ability to patch / replace firmware.bin (Dangerous!)

Any other suggestions?

01-07-2005 21:36:07

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) mike
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Forkboy... how about adding entire firmware load.....my CVS Blue which was Firmware 6430 has some how
been partially updated to 6520.....I have the original firmware.bin would try to upload it.....
01-08-2005 11:59:50

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) morcheeba
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ForkBoy - I think he means combine BMP/TFT conversion tool into PVTool, not uncompressing pictures -- but that would be nice, can you get a move on it?
01-08-2005 16:55:13

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) ForkBoy
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BMP/TFT conversion - Much easier

I'm slowly working on all of this - Need to make sure
things work correctly so cameras don't get fried.

01-08-2005 18:25:43

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) brite_eye
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Operation not permitted in boot loader mode! Enough is enough and I do not want to see that again and WON'T.

While trying to manually focus screwing in, shooting, screwing out, shooting, screwing in, shooting, and in general screwing lens on my modified CVS Red, I was frustrated by getting boot message and having to reboot to make things work. While it seems simple now and never fails, simply performing the following sequence gives success after a not permitted message: close irfan view, close pv2tool, unplug, replug, open pv2tool, unlock, run irfan view, select, batch scan. No need to reboot. Also, plugging in while green light is on creates problems.

01-10-2005 04:07:36

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) brite_eye
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taytrr, I need a RAW image not jpg. If you can not get one using pv2tool, try our old method using Drmn4ea's poker to download a hotplugged image just after taking it. That method includes both a compressed and decompressed version (in 27s at $12000 and $120000). Then you can try boodle's debayer raw2bmp and relive some stormy history.

For an rather depressing view of how minds typically gel as age sets in, try submitting your alphabet soup for a critique under fine art category on photo.net. Be sure to mention 10 dollar (it takes experience to get a $ on photo.net) CVS camera and Linux-Hacker. Feel free to request my email from photo.net to send me a RAW hue.

01-15-2005 06:58:16

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) mike
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Taytrr I was getting this on mv CVS Blue before I trashed it....
It returned blue images with cheez fox2 driver but returned good pics with FlatFoto drvr
01-15-2005 07:15:46

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) mike
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Drmn4ea
What's the possibility of adding some simple scripting to usbpoker..
Like BulkOut Cmdx,,,Bulkin Xbytes,,,if status0 ...... just enough
to do a little automation of events....

Would you or anyone else have any idea of how to get libusb to work with Visual Basic...

01-15-2005 07:21:43

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) dakotamod
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thanks, mike. taytrr, no need to respond to brite_eye (mike has just confirmed his level suspicions). I am giving brite_eye a break, Ritz - last of Dakotas is mine and needs some assembler work as I just described in Questions thread.
01-15-2005 07:42:19

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) brite_eye
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Back from the computer show. It was seriously lacking female mini usbs. I ended up paying $10 for 4 floppy Y cables each with one non-molex male and 2 females. The females plug into back of 3.5 floppy drives, the non-molex males plug directly into females on same cable. I plan to solder 8 females into 8 cameras and attach 4 males to standard USB cables (which I had previously bought for $2 each). This should last much longer than my current palm solution, which is causing noticeable wear on camera contacts. I tried several searches on internet for a similar cable but all seem to use molex male connectors. If it works well, I will post some pictures. I should be able to do this without cutting any camera plastic and end up with a flush connector.
01-15-2005 18:36:06

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 1 times) MrBlue
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To brite_eye and others looking for female USB Type B connectors to solder into your camera. You can order them online pretty easily. I found the cheapest place to be http://www.mouser.com/ . You can also get them at http://www.digikey.com/ but they are a little more expensive.

Regular Type B ($0.58 each): http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?handler=displayproduct&lstdispproductid=224907&e_categoryid=620
Mini Type B ($1.44 each): http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?handler=displayproduct&lstdispproductid=300414&e_categoryid=620

Also, if you don't want to pay for them, you can request free samples from http://www.molex.com/ . The product numbers are Regular Type B: 0675030340, and Mini Type B: 0672650001. I've requested them but they havn't arrived yet, so I can't guarantee that you'll actually get em.

01-19-2005 14:51:02

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) binaryweaver
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If you order from Mouser, make sure that you purchase the connectors with the solder tails:
Mouser part: 154-UBW21

Have you ever tried soldering to an SMT component? Not fun.

I didn't see Mouser list the physical dimensions of the part. Would be helpful to know if it will fit in the camera.

01-19-2005 16:14:18

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) MrBlue
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True about the SMT connectors on the mini-USB, they are really small. However I didn't see any non-SMT mini ports.

Anyway, a regular full size Type B connector will fit on the bottom edge of the camera right below the "Display" button. Works pretty nicely instead of having to make a custom cable.

01-20-2005 22:22:05

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) Schwinn
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Hello from a lurker with his first Question / Suggestion. (I couldn't decide which slot this belonged in ,maybe too many to choose from
First off I've had one of the blue Dakotas for some time now works great. Thanks guys.
Morcheeba & any other Mac users. I'm hoping at some point there will be a Mac solution for the new Red Camera as there is for the older Camera. I'm wondering about iPhoto which comes with OSX. Many/most USB and firewire cameras work with it without any extra drivers. Has it been tried with the Newer Dakota cameras? I thought of this as Apple just released as a paid upgrade iPhoto 5 (one of maybe 5 apps in a bundle called "iLife05" What caught my eye was on iPhoto5's list of new features was the ability to "Import, organize ,& edit photos captured in RAW-format files from Cameras. The free versions of iPhoto can't do that. A friend is getting a copy in a few days. Would it be worth getting one of the newer Red Cameras from Ritz/Wolf and trying it? I'm within walking distance of one of the stores(Camera World large showroom owned by Ritz/Wolf) I guess it would still have some compression issues or who knows what. What does anyone think.
01-24-2005 03:33:46

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) ForkBoy
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I think we could use a WIKI for all of this.

Does anyone know where we could host a Disposable Digital Camera Wiki?

Then we could all provide our expertise in one central location...

01-30-2005 16:23:16

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) j_tetazoo
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Quickie question... Anyone tried using Picasa (http://www.picasa.com ) with their hacked camera?
02-10-2005 09:38:10

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 2 times) sailpix
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Picasa (and Picasa2) are - as far as I know - just applications for managing
your digital pictures *after* you have retrieved them from your camera.

Picasa doesn't have support to retrive images via the TWAIN scaner interface
which many of us are using to retrieve pictures from the SMaL reusable
cameras. But it could be used to manage your pictures once you leap through
the various separate hoops to download them from the camera.

Picasa may be able to copy images from a storage directory - and most cameras
make their pictures available through a storage directory when they are
connected via USB. However, nobody's gotten that to work with these
disposables yet... There are STI and WIA drivers for the commercial SMaL
cameras - but they do not work with an unlocked reusable SMaL (yet? ).


- sailpix _/)
02-10-2005 10:18:16

New MessageRE:Suggestions - 1 2 many 4 all (modified 0 times) ygfperson
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>I think we could use a WIKI for all of this.
>
>Does anyone know where we could host a Disposable Digital Camera Wiki?

I used to host a general purpose wiki as an experiment on my server. Unfortunately it's behind a firewall presently and I'd need to fill out a form or two to request port 80 to be opened.

Any web server with php/mysql abilities should be able to do it though. Setting it up is fairly trivial

02-10-2005 14:46:43

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