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Why upgrade the CPU to a K6?

New MessageWhy upgrade the CPU to a K6? (modified 0 times) thecounts
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I keep seeing all of these threads about upgrading the IO to an AMD K6 III processor, and many of them reference running the new chip at 200 or 233 Mhz. My IO has the 266 Mhz Rise CPU and I'm wondering if there's any advantage to switching to an AMD CPU at the same speed. Obviously installing the AMD K6 II or III would be an advantage if I were do the mods to clock it up to 333 Mhz, but my question is "Are the AMD processors better than a Rise CPU at the same speed?" If so, in what way are they better? I look forward to any feedback anyone cares to give...........
10-08-2000 18:26:41

New MessageRE:Why upgrade the CPU to a K6? (modified 0 times) Turbo3
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Yes, there is an advantage to running with the K6-III even at 200MHz since it includes an L2 cache that is missing from the i-opener motherboard. The Rise CPU is really only running at 200MHz not at 266MHz. The 266 is a PR rating not the true clock speed which is still only 200MHz for the Rise. I will see if I can generate and post some comparison numbers between the two using the same 200MHz clock speed later today.
10-09-2000 00:46:59

New MessageRE:Why upgrade the CPU to a K6? (modified 0 times) Icedtea
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For V3,V3b and below to V1, this cpu (K6-III 333) isn't a drop-in without some motherboard modification. Correct?

If that is the case, is WinChip2 is the only cpu on market (used/new) that can be a drop-in for the above versions?

Thanks!

10-09-2000 02:05:04

New MessageRE:Why upgrade the CPU to a K6? (modified 0 times) Kudzu
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Yes.
10-09-2000 03:23:44

New MessageRE:Why upgrade the CPU to a K6? (modified 0 times) ckbone
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Unless your board had a RISE cpu to begin with, a Winchip2 is apparently the fastest chip you can use, without board mods. If you were hesitant to do any soldering, probably the easiest route to a good upgrade would be to sell your I-Opener on E-Bay, and buy a new V5, acquire a K63 333, which is a drop-in upgrade. A V4, V4b, V5, which had a RISE chip, can be upgraded to a Pentium200mmx, which is about 20% faster. A V4b or V5, which both have an SW4 switch, can use the AMD chip also, without mods.

Actually, a V2 (my first I-Opener hack) with a Winchip2, 128mg ram, a fast hard drive, running Windows2000, with some tweaking is a pretty good machine......very stable, no crashing, runs cool. I never soldered anything on the board. I personally think you are nuts to attempt soldering on this board unless you are an expert at surface mount technology, and unless you are willing to accept the total loss of your I-Opener, which can easily happen. Sending your board off to Codeman to get fixed, could easily exceed the cost of a version switch, depending on the damage your solder job did.

You have got to think about what you are dealing with here. This is never going to be a killer, cutting edge computer......do in main to one thing.....a relatively crappy screen, which you are stuck with, no matter what other fancy upgrades you can do.

10-09-2000 03:50:46

New MessageRE:Why upgrade the CPU to a K6? (modified 0 times) Turbo3
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Ok, here are the numbers for the Rise, Pentium MMX, and K6-III 333MHz all running at the stock rate of 200MHz. These tests were done in a V4 with the SW4 vcore switch. Only the vcore was changed between runs (2.0 and 2.2 for the K6-III and 2.8 for the Rise and Pentium MMX. Numbers are from Sandra Professional Version 2000.7.6.49.


.............Rise.......Pentium.......K6-III
--------------------------------------------
CPU..........447........405...........486
FPU..........153........223...........226
I-MMX........435........413...........482
FP/3D Now....160........152...........723

Memory Benchmarks
ALU-Mem BW....18.........36............47
FPU-Mem BW....32.........47............52

Only the K6 has 3D Now support.

Sandra falsely reports that all three have a 256KB L2 cache when only the K6-III has one.

10-09-2000 09:31:07

New MessageRE:Why upgrade the CPU to a K6? (modified 0 times) Icedtea
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ckbone,

Is the P200/MMX a drop-in for the V4 (has Rise but no SW4) ?

10-10-2000 13:03:27

New MessageRE:Why upgrade the CPU to a K6? (modified 0 times) Turbo3
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Yes, the Pentium MMX is just a drop in. It has a vcore of 2.8v just like the Rise MP6 so even if you have no SW4 it will work. For my tests I just removed the Rise and put in the Pentium MMX. There is nothing to change.
10-10-2000 15:21:56

New MessageRE:Why upgrade the CPU to a K6? (modified 0 times) ckbone
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I've been using a pentium200mmx in my V4 (no sw4) for several months now, no mods. Turbo3 clued me in on this chip....although he at first mentioned some crashing problems. I never had any problems.....mine uses a stock, permanently attached Intel fan. I cut a hole in the case to get this to fit, and power the fan with an external 12v power supply. When I run the same Sandra benchmarks on it, overclocked to 210mhz (SoftFSB), it consistantly gets 450 cpu, 238 fpu. In real world usage tests, it is definately faster/better than the RISE chip, and worth the $60 I paid(EBay) for the cpu/fan combo. I do not worry about overheating, crashing, or other problems. If I had a V4b.....I probably would have bought an AMD chip, and run it without mods.
10-10-2000 17:23:03

New MessageRE:Why upgrade the CPU to a K6? (modified 0 times) thecounts
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OK, so Rise is marketing their chips under the same ruse that Cyrix used to - giving them a number rating that implies a faster clock speed and justifying it by saying its comparable to a Pentium at the faster speed. HMMM, VERY interesting.

Some of the motherboard mods threads didn't make much sense to me before because I assumed that the Rise was really running at 266 Mhz. The lightbulb's on now!

I'll have to go back and review some of the info on the motherboard mods, but basically am I correct in thinking that the only way to clock even the mighty K6III 333 higher than 200Mhz is by smd soldering? Or are the motherboard mods only to try and get split voltages to accomodate CPUs OTHER than the 333? In other words, is there a SIMPLE way to raise the clock speed above 200Mhz?

10-10-2000 19:44:41

New MessageRE:Why upgrade the CPU to a K6? (modified 0 times) ckbone
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Again, like Slick Willie would have said, it depends on your definition of simple. It's simple for Turbo3 to solder resistors, and to figure out Vcore voltage/settings.....not for me however. You can probably use SoftFSB to overclock to 210mhz, but unless you are willing to solder, and to try to figure out some of the long threads on the subject, 200mhz is the limit until someone figures out another (easier) approach. If you have a board with the SW4 switch, you can use the AMD chips.....but you still cannot exceed 200mhz without board modifications.
10-11-2000 04:39:59

New MessageRE:Why upgrade the CPU to a K6? (modified 0 times) Tackhead
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Also, something to think about is "bang for the buck".

A while back, I benchmarked the K6-III at various clock rates vs. the WinChip C6 at 200 MHz:

http://www.linux-hacker.net/cgi-bin/UltraBoard/UltraBoard.pl?Action=ShowPost&Board=verytech&Post=124&Idle=0&Sort=0&Order=Descend&Page=0&Session=

A V1 (WinChip 200) can easily double its speed (K6-III-200) in real-world applications for $30 and some soldering.

While a K6-III is faster than a Rise/P200MMX/WinChip2, the speed improvement isn't quite as extreme as it is vs. the V1's WinChip 200.

If you've got a V1, I'd say the K6-III hack is very much worth the trouble. (The soldering required to change bus speed and/or multiplier is much easier than the soldering required to get the chip up and running in the first place!)

If you've got a Rise or WinChip2, it's still a Good Thing to upgrade the CPU, but it's the night-and-day improvement over the V1.

Turbo3: Very interesting memory bandwidth numbers you've got for the Rise - they're about a third of the WinChip 200 (!) (Disclaimer - my WinChip 200 results were made with 32M onboard, not 128M. That shouldn't affect anything, but who knows?)

ckbone: Well-said. This isn't a mod for folks who've never picked up a soldering iron. (If you've never picked up an iron, get a scrap circuit board from a surplus store and practice on it first!).

While I'm very happy with my K6-III (over V1 C6-200) performance boost, I only did it because I (a) felt comfortable hacking SMT, and (b) was willing to risk my IO in order to have the pleasure of the hack.

What it comes down to is "why do you need the speed"? If it's for games, consider buying a used active-matrix laptop. (Unless you have parts, the cost of a hard drive, power supply, and what-not to run games on an IO will be about the same price as a used laptop, and the laptop will have a better screen). About the only "good" reason I can see for adding extra CPU power to the IO is for MP3 playback or mobile mapping software for GPS.

10-11-2000 14:06:17

New MessageRE:Why upgrade the CPU to a K6? (modified 0 times) Russtang
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Does anyone remember those little adapters that came out with the era of the MMX Pentiums? Since the MMX p5 was the first dual-voltage plane intel chip (?), most motherboards didn't support them. Some companies came out with small adapters that would plug in in-between the socket & your chip. They dropped the core voltage from 3.3 to 2.8v. I think you can still get these?

Has anyone tried something like this? They probably just use a simple voltage dividing circuit, as all I remember seeing is a few smd resistors & caps on the adapter. This would be much more appealing to me (& I'm sure many others) than soldering on my motherboard & toasting god knows what because of a solder bridge.

10-11-2000 15:10:35

New MessageRE:Why upgrade the CPU to a K6? (modified 0 times) D2tw4all
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Hmmm, I have one of those with a 233MMX in it, but it's HUGE and I don't feel like hacking the crud out of my case to get it to fit. I'm sure it would fit however... You don't even need to change the clock multiplier on this thing I don't think, it's like a drop in chip replacement for old boards I think. I picked it up in an old system someone gave me to scrap for parts when I built them a new one, I've put it in an older board that wouldn't support anything over 200 non mmx, it saw it (with the board set to 166) as a 200 MMX... Don't really know how it works, but the system worked with it fine...
D2.
10-12-2000 13:31:37

New MessageRE:Why upgrade the CPU to a K6? (modified 0 times) ckbone
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There were some posts back in April or so, on the subject of using these sorts of adapters in the I-Opener. Seems to me, in order to get the thing to work, the adapter itself had to be externally powered with a 12v power supply. You'll have to search for the thread though........FWIW...here's another BBS on the subject of the AMD K6-III 333 and over-clocking http://discussions.hardwarecentral.com/Forum2/HTML/008403.html
10-12-2000 16:55:26

New MessageRE:Why upgrade the CPU to a K6? (modified 0 times) thecounts
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Thanks for all of the good info, particularly Turbo3's numbers and Tackhead's link to his benchmarking results. I'm interested in hacking my IO - in fact I bought one of the last hack kits DMasier was offering here in the BBS today.

BUT haven't figured out what version I have yet. I just recently bought my I-opener second-hand on eBay and the sticker on the box has a date of 5/11/00. It has the Rise 266 CPU, and I opened the RAM door but couldn't see a SW4 (should be somewhere on the board between the RAM slot & CPU socket, right?) or even a set of SMD pads for a SW4. The BIOS was originally "gooped" but the previous owner took care of that, installed a 6 Gb Hdd, and chopped the heatsink (no Lasagna cooler). Is this an early V4, a V3, a V3b or what? Any opinions? Are there other "telltale" indicators I need to look for to more precisely identify it?

10-19-2000 21:33:06

New MessageRE:Why upgrade the CPU to a K6? (modified 0 times) ASPguy
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The counts, chances are that you have what we called the V4a , version 4 a, they dont' have all the dip switches. Therefore you'll have to get the resistor/switchs kit.

We're putting together my 2nd group buy, and when there is enough people we'll make the order. it's better if we make it around the 8th of november because that is when digikey will get their supply in.

the 1st group buy is still waiting on the dip switches. Seems like someone is buy them out. strange.

-aspguy

10-20-2000 10:11:01

New MessageRE:Why upgrade the CPU to a K6? (modified 0 times) thecounts
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Thanks to all for helping me ID which version I have (4a)- now my question is: Can I make mine a straight-up V4 by just adding the SW1, SW2, & SW4?(I already know it has the SW3)
Or do I still have to change/add resistors to get it to run at around 333Mhz (say 66 x 6)? I've done a fair amount of soldering but not on SMDs so I'm a little hesitant to get into anything too complex........
10-20-2000 20:02:52

New MessageRE:Why upgrade the CPU to a K6? (modified 0 times) ASPguy
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thecounts, you think you are hesitant,
i've never solder before, imagine me trying to solder on a microscopic resistor using a cheap radio shack soldering iron. heh,

if i can do it (don't know if sucessful yet) the anyone else can.

-aspguy

10-23-2000 10:37:58

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