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slight annoynce with RS-232 daughterboard
doesn't change the fact that I love it

New Messageslight annoynce with RS-232 daughterboard (modified 0 times) PrimerAL
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(I tried to reply to the ongoing RS-232 thread but it wouldn't let me)

I received my boards yesterday and spent a few hours cutting my case and the RF shielding... one thing annoys me though. I have a tiny 5v Sunon blower fan that I hooked up to the fan output of the RS-232 board. When there is no sound playing, I hear a noticeable electrical whine from the audio output of the board.

It's not headhone dependent, I've hooked it up to my stereo and some computer speakers and hear the same whine. It's fan RPM dependent, as the sound completely goes away when I'm holding the fan still. Moving the fan away does not help.

What can I do to stop the electrical whine, a small cap?

04-06-2001 12:44:19

New MessageRE:slight annoynce with RS-232 daughterboard (modified 0 times) mp3boombox
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HEHE I hate to tell you this but I'v preach it befor an no one wanted to listen :)(, you can even ask bad flash also, But yoru little problem with the audio/serial all in one mod has one BIG FLAW in every board, its the design. The power suply is split between 3 sources goin off one thin little trace. This is the first thing which is very bad due to over drawing of a small trace on the iopener's mother board. Which is not suppose to handle That amount of power at any given time. The second thing is that the FAN power supply is hooked upto both the audio hack power supply and the serial hack power supply. This MEANS THAT YOUR GOING to get A BIT OF FEED BACK from a MAGNETIC source on the power which is going threw the audio. The serial You will see some decress in proeformance due to potentiol data loss when using a FAN. And as for the audio well. the only thing that will happen is an anoying hum from the fan's magntic pulsing.

IF YOU WOULD like to varfiy this talk to bad flash. I sent him an email about the potential problem on the on in one board.

Thats why I'v always sold my audio/seial mod's seperated with FULL documentation statin the reason's why I had set it up this and that way.

THERE are a number of peopl whim have gotten both audio and serial hacks from me and NOT ONE has ever complained or had a sinle problem.

IF any of you guys would like to vouch for this pelase do :)!!!!!!

04-06-2001 14:10:18

New MessageRE:slight annoynce with RS-232 daughterboard (modified 0 times) ttn1
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mp3boombox has a very valid point. I run my audio mod seperate from the serial mod. I have a serial mod board which is very nice and I plan to install it when I get a chance, but I will still probably use my seperate audio mod. Any electrical guys can correct me if I'm wrong, but my guess for the problem would be power noise just like mp3boombox says.

Decoupling, as much as possible, the power going to the fan from the power to the audio amplifier would be job one. A capacitor from the +5V at the CN0 connector to the GND beside it might help. Play around with different size capacitors to see which will work best. You need a bigger capacitor to help knock out lower frequency noise. I would start around a few hundred microfarad and work your way up. Please, anybody correct me if they think I'm wrong.
good luck.

ttn2

04-06-2001 16:47:30

New MessageRE:slight annoynce with RS-232 daughterboard (modified 0 times) mp3boombox
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TTn1 if you woudl like I can send you a COPY of my install sheet which has nice color pictures and lots of tip's/street talk technical information about how and where and what you should do to get the best sound from the 2 hacks.
04-06-2001 22:54:25

New MessageRE:slight annoynce with RS-232 daughterboard (modified 0 times) mp3boombox
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3 hacks I should say sarry, serial/audio/fan hehe. while all installed in teh same system.
04-06-2001 23:00:43

New MessageRE:slight annoynce with RS-232 daughterboard (modified 0 times) ttn1
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Thanks mp3boombox. I was just trying to help the guy attempt to achieve better sound with his existing setup. Actually I did the headphone out for my V3. I use a tape a dapter for use in the car. To my ears it sounds great. No distortion at high volume and very little noise at low volume except for a little tape hiss.
I haven't done a whole lot of audio amplifier work, mostly low noise instrumentation amplifiers. The noise reduction is pretty much the same for all of them though. I would actually like to see your notes if you have adigital copy. I'm slowly putting together an Iop how to website and would be very interested to see your thoughts on this. I'll activate the email in my profile.

ttn1

04-07-2001 03:59:44

New MessageRE:slight annoynce with RS-232 daughterboard (modified 0 times) ckbone
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A very quick and easy solution to this problem, would be to power the fan from an external supply....removing the hum and removing the current draw from the board. Some particular fans are electrically more noisy than others.
04-07-2001 05:39:42

New MessageRE:slight annoynce with RS-232 daughterboard (modified 0 times) Enduser6
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Will the fan noise goes away if I get the power from the hard drive, like the mod3 or does only solution is an external power?
04-07-2001 12:10:44

New MessageRE:slight annoynce with RS-232 daughterboard (modified 0 times) ttn1
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Enduser6 its a good possiblity that if you power the fan from the harddrive header, that you will be OK. The only way to find out for sure is to try it. It really depends on how much noise the fan is actually creating. I don't use a fan in my IO or I would try it for you.

ttn2

04-07-2001 15:29:24

New MessageRE:slight annoynce with RS-232 daughterboard (modified 0 times) 02U2
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Back in the old days when I owned a 62 Ford econoline van I had a bad problem with "Generator" (Yes GENERATOR) noise coming thru the powerline to my 8 Track (*Yes 8 TRACK) I constructed a simple LC inline filter to eliminate this noise and it worked.
Perhaps one can do the same in this case only on a smaller scale...Ferrite bead or donut and a small cap?


(*I really gave away my age now....)

04-07-2001 16:12:09

New MessageRE:slight annoynce with RS-232 daughterboard (modified 0 times) 02U2
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That is, connect it in line with the fan power line.
04-07-2001 16:15:31

New MessageRE:slight annoynce with RS-232 daughterboard (modified 0 times) Enduser6
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Just finished the RS-232 daughterboard installation. I also got the humming into the speakers (its really annoying). I am powering the fan (lagsana) from the daughterboard, unfortunately I could not try the HD header to check if it goes away or any better, dont have the MOD3 on this one (home made getto mod for the HD). Could somebody post the pins for a +5 on the IDE header...what the heck...will fine it with search.
04-07-2001 16:21:41

New MessageRE:slight annoynce with RS-232 daughterboard (modified 0 times) BadFlash
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r_fl_z is out of town. I'm sure he'll have some feedback on this when he comes back. I tested mine with my Lasagna fan plugged into the RS-232 and got no noise. Maybe the Sunon fan makes a lot more noise than the Lasagna cooler.

Is the fan that is doing this one of mine, the little 25mm ones?
Do try getting power from the IMOD3 if you can. How close do the sound wires run to the fan and how close is the fan to the sound chip?

04-07-2001 16:29:21

New MessageRE:slight annoynce with RS-232 daughterboard (modified 0 times) Enduser6
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Corrected the whinning sound from RS-232 daughterboard but getting the power for the fan at VGA hearder Pin 6 (+5) and 8 (ground) convienently next to each other.
04-07-2001 17:59:30

New MessageRE:slight annoynce with RS-232 daughterboard (modified 0 times) mp3boombox
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That is correct SIR.. hehe my install notes have you use the power supply from the VIDEO out header. Simply because its away from the audio. I tipicly have the POWER from the audio mod and the serial mod on the same source but FAN seperate from both AND the hard drive. As i said befor you dont want to have any noise sources on any area that is sensative. I.e. audio, serial, EVEN yes hard drive.
one of the biggest proven killers of hard drives are brownouts, If you lower the power tomuch but not enuff to make the hard drive kick out and shut down you may get incorrect micanical function's. This can cause bad sectors or other problems. You can damage IC's by not provideing enuff power also.

For an example of IC problems, a PIC16f84 is a small 16pin chip which has its own mp's or risc??? processor running at 4mhz and it can take about 9k worth in asembly CODE. because tis rewritable. But its also got onboard ram a wopping 52byts HOOOO WEEE!!!, well if the system is running some APP and you lower the power to much you can have miss fires or failed electronic pulses which are the LIFE of the system peirod!!! hence problems.
or i could hehe relate it to GENOM theory seeing as how i work in a LAB www.jax.org :) but in any case I'v made my point. tell ya what dealing with animals all day gets booring. but hay its FREE collage in bio/genetic/surgery ect.. all kinds of stuff :) and i get paid to learn collage cources on campus HEHE.

Now if I can just figur out how to silence my CAT from talking so much.

YES I KNOW my spelling is bad!! ITS also saterday night and I'm only 22 :) HIT HIT burp

Also as for using a GROUND i wouldnt suggest using the ground on the pin8 of the video port. BOTH becasue its one extra HARD thing to solder from both location and size, AND if you ever decide to use a VIDEO out hack. Well your going to get some TARABLE picture DUE to major feed back. regarless of the TYPE of fan you use. the best ground would be the outside ground. or the ground that makes up the BOARDER round the out side of the mother board. Reason being is just because its that much further away from the data sensitive areas. Now i dont know off hand if there are any components inbetween that ground and the outside ground which would mop up the distortion source? Or if there are certian areas which DO/DONT have such parts but the theory is still the same.

TURBO3 could answer that one better then i can.

04-07-2001 20:52:43

New MessageRE:slight annoynce with RS-232 daughterboard (modified 0 times) r_fl_z
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Both the fan and the audio hack are seperately decoupled, and with the Lasagna fan, it sounds great in most installations....as verified by other posts around the board. A number of things can contribute to noise in the audio. Principally, large variations in fan quality and noise. How the fan power leads and audio cables are routed within the noisey iO enclosure can also contribute to the problem. I would suggest that excessive noise is more an indication of a fan deficiency than of a design defect in the serial board. If it's important to you, try a Lasagna.
04-07-2001 21:58:14

New MessageRE:slight annoynce with RS-232 daughterboard (modified 0 times) r_fl_z
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PrimerAl:

If you are interested, I'll swap you a new Lasagna fan for your noisey one. I'd like to look it over. Email me if interested.

04-09-2001 11:31:43

New MessageRE:slight annoynce with RS-232 daughterboard (modified 0 times) PrimerAL
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It's the Sunon blower fan that I'm having noise issues with. However, I have the Lasagna being powered from the COM2 header (soldered to the leads on the mobo) but that doesn't have any electrical noise issue.

Jack, the Sunon fan I am talking about wasn't from you so don't worry I bought it from Digikey. It's a 25mmx25mm 5v blower fan that I have hotglued to the memory door (B0503PFB2-8). It's blowing up toward the Tennmax, and it's good for 12 degrees F for CPU temp.

If I have to lose the Sunon fan, I may have another solution. 30cm x 30cm Peltiers for $17 (perfect for the top surface of the AMD K6-III+ 450). I don't know if that's a great price or not, but the specs show it works in the range of 3-15 volts. Seeing that it's 3mm thick, and there's a 40x40x7 Sunon 5v heatsink/fan that I have on order, all of that will fit inside the case and operate on 5v. Bingo, silent super cooling, and bye-bye to the electrical noise problem. Possible issue there will be current draw... but I have a 3rd party power brick that I think is rated for 3A

04-09-2001 15:37:23

New MessageRE:slight annoynce with RS-232 daughterboard (modified 0 times) ttn1
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You should get lots of responses to this. Watch the current draw on the peltier. They usually draw a boat load of power. And they have to dump the heat on the hot side to somewhere. I would imagine you would have issues with getting all that heat out with the miniscule heatsink of the Tennmax. Maybe you actually have a low power peltier and have thought this all through. But super cooling always means super heating somewhere else. Conservation of energy.

Good Luck

ttn2

04-09-2001 16:57:12

New MessageRE:slight annoynce with RS-232 daughterboard (modified 0 times) mp3boombox
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If your intrested I have 1"x1"x1cm fans which are 5v .3w fans. i have ONE of these cooling my CPU that is clocked at 525mhz with the q16 chip inplace currently and its doing a more then effective job. and uses less power then the tennmax fan.

If your intrested in one $5 and its yours. I'v only got 2 left and I may keep one regardless cuase i dont know whats causing the other guys problems with the USB support dropping after a while when running at 600mhz. I'm going to asume its a HEAT problem somewhre. If thats the case I'll use one of these fans to try and correct that problem. :) with luck that will fix it. and when i get my dc-dc adapter and get setup I'll have mine running at 600mzh 100% stable.I'd asume its the controler I/O chip to the left of the CPU that is getting to hot??

04-09-2001 17:27:29

New MessageRE:slight annoynce with RS-232 daughterboard (modified 0 times) PrimerAL
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http://www.allelectronics.com/spec/PJT-1.pdf

This has the specs for the Peltier I am getting. About the current draw, am I reading this correctly, 1.54A at 7V? I'll test the setup with the aftermarket power brick when I have everything.

Yes, Peltiers have a hot and cold side. The hot side needs to be heatsunk and fanned or else the Peltier gets fried and becomes a fire hazard. But at 5v I'm hoping extreme heat wouldn't be an issue. Before I give it a thumbs up I will have to do some torture tests with the hard drive running.

04-09-2001 20:03:00

New MessageRE:slight annoynce with RS-232 daughterboard (modified 0 times) r_fl_z
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In talking to PrimerAl about his noise problem, we have discovered the likely source of the problem. First, he is using a secondary blower type fan (Sunon) mounted off the cpu for secondary cooling purposes. This is completely different fan install, and a different catagory of fan, than was tested with the board. This, in itself, may or may not cause a problem...depending on many variables such as installation location, fan type and quality, and lead routing within the iO.

The biggest problem with this install is that AL is not pulling his power through the filtered FAN headers, but rather through the power pads supplied on the PCB for future hacks (ie, the IR hack). This results in the bypassing of the filter circuitry specifically designed to reduce fan noise. I recommend using the FAN headers for powering the fan(s). This will give you the best hope of reducing any noise, since the header leads are filtered. The audio hack has been reported to function adequately when the fan is powered in this manner.

Al, if you choose to continue to use the power pads on the PCB, and you desire a different solution than you have for your particular install, I would suggest you install a 2.2uF tantalum cap across the power leads...as close as you can to the power pads on the board.

Hope that helps.

04-10-2001 01:55:08

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