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Home / I-Opener Areas / I-Opener Technical Stuff Cheap, legal Win98SE An interesting back-door.

Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) BadFlash Profile | Email I just tried something interesting. I got a bunch of cheap upgrade packages for setting up a Microsoft home network. These can be found on the suplus market for as little as $20 and are sold as an upgrade from Win98FE to Win98SE. It is a nice 3 CD set that contains the CD for the Win98SE and the home network software and a game demo CD. I tried to use it as a Win95 upgrade, but it was a no-go. I then I thought, well the key code looked like the same pattern as my win98SE CD, maybe I could use them to do a clean install of Win98SE. No go. Here is the cool part. I installed Win98SE from my OEM disk, then used the Win98SE upgrade disk and it "upgraded" it, even though it was already Win98SE and gave it a nice clean new license number! This seems like a pretty cheap way to get Win98SE for folks worried about getting busted by Microsoft. 04-17-2001 06:00:14

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) eddavis Profile BadFlash, that may get past any sort of MS license checking, but it's far from legal. 04-17-2001 07:55:18

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) BadFlash Profile | Email I'm not so sure about that. It may not meet the intent, but it does not seem to be in violation of the stuff I was reading when I loaded it. I'm open to your interpretaion, what chapter & verse do you see that prevent one from doing this? I'm always open to legal discussions. That way people can make up their own minds about if they want to do it or not. 04-17-2001 11:14:10

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) eddavis Profile OK, that seems like a good attitude for checking this out. Here's how I look at it. You purchased something that contains (among other things) an upgrade from W98FE to SE. So, this would mean you have two copies of W98 - One for your OEM machine and one for your io (or wherever you're putting this new FE->SE upgrade). That doesn't seem to be the way you described it. Any upgrade package still requires a license to the package it's upgrading. 04-17-2001 11:54:31

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) BadFlash Profile | Email In my case I have an un-used OEM version and 6 WinSE upgrade packages. If I put the Win98OEM on a machine, then upgrade something that doesn't need to be upgraded I have, in effect, simply replaced one licence for another and the gives me a new licence number. The OEM version was a quailified upgrade basis as verified by the software checking it and saying it was OK to do the upgrade. I never had the OEM version on more than one machine at a time and once I got the "new" licence it freed up the old one to be used again. I'll look over the fine print tonight and see if I see anything explicit in the software agreement that prohibits this, but I don't think I will. This same sort of trick works on the WinME promotional upgrade. I would agree that making multiple copies of the same licence would be a violation of copyright, but I do not think that this is the same thing. My feeling is that this is not what Microsoft intended, but also not something their lawyers protected them from. Once the package is upgraded the old one is no longer needed. It stands on its own. How would such a thing be enforced anyway? I have a machine that started off as a dos machine, was upgraded to Win 3.1, Win 3.11, Win95 and now Win98SE, all upgrades. I long ago lost the Win3.1 and Win95 floppies and all I have is the Win98SE upgrade docs. How would one ever be able to prove legal ownership of their software? 04-17-2001 14:01:35

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) ttn1 Profile | Email This sounds like the issue a lot of government offices, schools, etc. are going through with MS. I'm pretty sure microsoft requires a valid license upon which the upgrade can be applied, but you must maintain both valid licenses to keep it legal in MS's eyes. If you think you outsmarted Bill Gates' lawyers, I would love to see it. They live by this stuff and I would be very surprised. Granted it would be very hard to enforce. Just because you run a red light and nobody saw you, does that make it legal. I actually dislike windows in general and have no love for MS, but telling people this is legal is probably a bit of a stretch. Just thought I'd add to the discussion. ttn2 04-17-2001 14:54:26

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) eddavis Profile Flash, if you have any OEM version, 99% of the time it is tied to certain hardware. In other words, I buy a 200 MHz computer with OEM Win98 installed. I then go out and make my own 900 MHz computer from parts, and trash my old machine. Most of the time, I cannot legally put that copy of Win98 on my new machine. If you only have one original full install and multiple upgrades, you should only have the OEM machine installed. How do you go about proving the chain of upgrades? It's tough. I doubt that MS would come after the little guy, it's the guy pirating CD's and selling them online that they go after (and rightly so IMO). Once a package is upgraded, it does not stand on its own legally. You still have to own the license to what it was before the upgrade. 04-17-2001 17:16:27

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) BadFlash Profile | Email So far this is just speculation. I know what Billy boy wants, and I know any big corporation can bully people with their lawyers, but I didn't see anything in the agreement that I clicked on about this at all. Can someone cite me chapter & verse? I think the upgrade license is the only one that counts. These are individually numbered and they replace what used to be there. This software isn't free either. I paid for it, and I didn't do any hacking to make it work. I just stuck in the CD and it worked. Sounds to me like a defective product. Maybe I should sue! 04-17-2001 19:47:19

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) 02U2 Profile Since we are in a discussion mode here,and opinions run rampant...I have a speculative senario... Lets say one run's across many OEM certificate of authenticity's for Winblows 9* while looking for uh...That's it aluminum cans for recycling, in a business dumpster..., The fact that the business upgraded there machines to newer model pc's and dumped the old ones somewhere... Are the dumped certificates up for grabs? Is possession of the Winblows certificate PROOF one is now "vola" a licensed user? 04-17-2001 21:30:46

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) * StarFish * Profile This is an Interesting Thread, But I feel it can't really go anywhere as Far as Micro$oft & it's BS is Concerned. What I would like to Ask is, How do You Think Intellectual Property should be Compensated ? I am Talking about Software & Music & Movies among other things. The People that write Software need to Eat Too ! What's the Answer ??? I think Micro$oft needs to go Subscription, But Spying / Copy Protection isn't going to Help them. What I have been hearing about Home XP will be enough to push Me to Linux I think They Need to Issue Me a Credit Card like thing & I can use whatever Products I have paid for Anywhere I am. I am Not talking about Copy Protection, just something I can show to Prove I have Paid. Otherwise I am Not Interested in Hoping they can keep track of My Account. All this info is used for Now is Sending You Junk Mail. I have Bought an OEM Copy of every Version of WinDose, up till WinMe ( I have Refused since they got Busted, & Refuse to accept it ) But I like WinMe & will buy a Copy sometime this year. I also Own a Copy of just about every Version of WordPerfect (WORD sUx, I use it @ WORK) But I actualy Own (Bought) a Copy of Office 97. I don't Register any of My Software, I don't want more junk mail. What's Your Thought on this Issue ??? * StarFish * 04-17-2001 22:16:25

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) BadFlash Profile | Email I think people should get paid for their work, and paid fairly. The big problem with Windows and microsoft is that the end user has few choices and gets ripped off at every turn. I am very carefull not to "priate" software. I have no problems taking advantage of what I see as loopholes. Napster and other services are clear copyright violations. You never paid for any part of the process and the origial copyright holder never gets a penny. Lets take Win98SE vs FE and their upgrade package. I had to buy the upgrade package, it was not free. In my opinion, it should have been free as Win98FE was defective and SE was really just a bug fix. Microsoft has set up all sorts of things to throttle competition and in some cases gets trapped in their own web as a result. I didn't steal anything in what I did. I bought software issued by Microsoft and installed it legally. They got paid, just not full price. Take the OEM liscense thing. There is no restriction on me buying an OEM liscense and installing it on a single machine. Most dealer won't SELL you one without forcing you to buy hardware from them, but that is just something they and Microsoft cooked up to sell stuff. There is nothing in the end users agreement about that. The software is legal on one machine at a time. You can un-install on one machine, then re-install on another machine. Totally legal unless you have some sort of special licence. Going over the end-users agreement on the upgrade, I see no place that requires me to keep the old software or license. The proof was offered at the time of upgrade and accepted by microsoft and a new license was issued. From what I can see it is legal. I even called up Microsoft Tech support, gave then the new license number and they didn't think twice about it. Consider this. I work with a company the orders Dell computers by the hundreds. They have a site license from Microsoft for NT. The machines come with Win98SE OEM shrink wrap and they dump these in the dumpster. If you fish a few of these out and use them, is that stealing? You didn't pay the author anything. Is that better than a clever method of discounting that I've discovered here? This is not a black & white area which is why Napster isn't shut down yet. Should one go to Office Max and pay $98 for a copy of Win98SE, or go on the web and buy it for $50. Are you "stealing the $48 or just making an informed buying descision? I used to live in an apartment behind a drive-in movie. I could watch & hear the drive in by looking out my window. Should I pay them for the movies I watched or should I sue them for disrupting my life with their movies. 04-18-2001 08:10:46

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) eddavis Profile Consider this. I work with a company the orders Dell computers by the hundreds. They have a site license from Microsoft for NT. The machines come with Win98SE OEM shrink wrap and they dump these in the dumpster. If you fish a few of these out and use them, is that stealing? Yes. Note that a Dell OEM CD (for NT/W2K at least) contains checks to make sure you're installing on Dell hardware. Even if you put it on another Dell machine that didn't come with W98, it's still stealing. Look at it this way: I own product X. A friend of mine buys upgrade X1, but doesn't own product X. I sell him my product, uninstall it from my machine, give him the CD. He installs it, takes the upgrade and installs that. He then sells my product back to me and I reinstall it. This is just as illegal as me lending him the CD so he can install it then his upgrade and then gives my copy of X back. OEM installs are almost always tied to hardware. The first paragraph in the "Introducing Windows" book that comes with most OEM installs states: "...If the SOFTWARE PRODUCT is not accompanied by a new computer system, you may not use or copy associated media,...". A few lines down: "Software Transfer You may permanently transfer all your rights under this EULA only as part of a sale or transfer of the COMPUTER, provided you retain no copies...". And, finally, on upgrades: "If the SOFTWARE PRODUCT is an upgrade from another product, whether from Microsoft or another supplier, you may user or transfer the SOFTWARE PRODUCT only in conjunction with that upgraded product, unless you destroy the upgraded product...the SOFTWARE PRODUCT may be used and transferred only as part of that single product package and may not be separated for use on more than one computer". I think that's fairly clear. I'm not saying I agree with any of these licensing terms/conditions, but they do exist. 04-18-2001 08:52:41

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) Ragnar Profile Even the Supreme Court has ruled that whatever one throws out into the garbage at that moment becomes public property. That is one reason that dumpster diving is not necessarily illegal. Therefore, what you find in someone else's trash bin can be used for your personal benefit. You may or may not be able to resale it, but for your personal use you can use it as you see fit. The ONLY way that Microsoft will be able to enforce it monopolistic policies is if the U.S. government goes the way of "Big Brother". May that day never come. 04-18-2001 09:51:19

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) BadFlash Profile | Email I have both Win98 and Win95 OEM stuff that says no such thing, so there must be many variations on the theme. In your example you added a step where the original Win98 was resold or re-installed on the original machine. My example did not suggest that. My upgrade software does not contain the limitations you say is on your product. I just checked with the WinNT product. It has a slip of paper addendum which is an obvious afterthought making statements similar to what you are saying. This is not retro-active however, nor could it be. I think there might be one or two people on this message board that hacked an IOPENER in direct violation of the agreement printed on the box. That isn't any different as far as I can see. 04-18-2001 10:31:19

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) eddavis Profile It's a standard upgrade clause. The upgrade and the original cannot be installed separately on different machines. Think about it. This would totally eliminate the need for full installs. It makes perfect sense, and the legalese states exactly that. As I said, OEM licenses are tied to the hardware 99% of the time. Sometimes it's a full machine, sometimes it's a hard drive. I added the uninstall/sell/reinstall as an example. It's a long jump from it being illegal to someone getting busted. You asked for chapter and verse, I gave it to you, and I bet I could find similar wording in whatever licenses you have. Justify it however you like. 04-18-2001 10:47:46

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) BadFlash Profile | Email Not trying to justify. Don't get upset or take this personal. This is supposed to be a lively discussion. I might just be playing devil's advocate here. Like I said, I don't doubt the intent, or your logic. I know for a fact that I have bought legally several dozen OEM copies of Win98 from a good number of legit dealers on the internet and at shows and stores such as Office Depot. None of the OEM copies I got came with any sort of hardware requirement. This would be silly to strap it to a specific hard drive and would not pass the "fair use" muster in the copyright law. You have the right to make back-up copies of your software and restore it if you change hard drives or your old one crashes. Yes, I know that the right to back up is not the right to duplicate. OEM licenses strapped to specific hardware come with "restore CD's" not Win98SE CD's. The software on these prevents your from restoring to a different kind of computer. I stipulate that the whole concept of an upgrade being the same license as the original is not true. Why would I get a different license number on the upgrade? If Microsoft had a mind to stop this they would strap the license number to the original load so there would be tracability. Why would they cut off the trail to theold install? Strict legal ethics gets lost when dealing with a company like Microsoft. I recently bought a legal copy of Win98SE upgrade from Buy.com and paid nearly $100 for it. This is inexcusable considering the cost of a new Win98SE is less than $60, but they want to get every penny they can with you not wanting to have to re-install all your software. The manual that came with it clearly said I got 1 year of free phone support. The install didn't go the way it should and when I called up Microsoft for support, they told me that I was not going to get the 1 year support no matter what the book said, that support would be 30 days, period. Contracts go both ways folks. Once a contract is broken, it isn't just a little broken is it? 04-18-2001 11:59:24

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) eddavis Profile Funny, I was about to say the same thing. Not taking it personally, though I have done software development and I'm not big on piracy. I know for a fact that I have bought legally several dozen OEM copies of Win98 from a good number of legit dealers on the internet and at shows and stores such as Office Depot. There are plenty of gray-market copies at comp shows, but I think a problem here is the definition of OEM. Can you show me an listing for OEM WinXX in Office Depot's online catalog? I stipulate that the whole concept of an upgrade being the same license as the original is not true. Why would I get a different license number on the upgrade? If Microsoft had a mind to stop this they would strap the license number to the original load so there would be tracability. Why would they cut off the trail to theold install? Sometimes license key checking algorithms are updated making old licenses invalid. This is an effort to combat piracy. The original key may be hiding encoded in the registry somewhere. Strict legal ethics gets lost when dealing with a company like Microsoft. Yeah, it's tough to defend MS, but the developers working on the code have to eat too. I recently set up several new Dell laptops and one IBM desktop. The IBM came with a "restore" CD. The Dells came with full-blown OEM CD's (they're blue if you're checking), with a small change in the install procedure that checked the hardware. The licenses were definitely tied to specific hardware. The IBM goes so far as to put the license sticker on the box itself. 04-18-2001 12:18:14

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) mp3boombox Profile | Email Welp i have not read the entire list of post's but from a LEGAL debate hehe I'll settle the whole shabang for ya. I know because i use to run a CYBER CAFE and was checked on almost ever 5 days for piracy. Well its goes like this, if you purchase a program You are alowed to ONLY use one licenced copy per computer IN A BUSINESS!!! <- keyword Business Now for home useage under ONE roof You are alowed to make copy's and installed the software package on as many computers in that home you own that is not a busness! There is no law or ruleing that says you cant make and install multi copy's of one program under one home/roof that is not a business. There for here is your answer for the very first post! If you would like you can go look it up. 04-18-2001 13:27:45

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) 02U2 Profile Speaking of registry...On my 3 home installs (Legally purchased software) I edit the registry values to remove the Keycode and digital product ID and just enter 1 single character for each registry value. I do this to hopefully maximize personal privacy online (I hate ESN's). There may be some additional embedded code somewhere else but for now I feel better at least doing the editing...(PS I NEVER enter my real name under registered user!) just something like NadaUbizniz or similar name...Yeah may sound paranoid but I value my privacy! 04-18-2001 15:50:11

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) friar Profile mp3boombox, thanx for the clarification. Now the only question I have is, what constitutes a business. I mean, if you didn't make any money... 04-18-2001 16:17:27

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) EDDavis Profile You cannot by one copy of most programs (Say W98) and install it on three different machines, regardless of business or home use. Note this is why some games/programs require you to have the CD in the machine to run. Note, in some instances you CAN install a program on multiple machines as long as you're not using both copies at the same time. Mp3, if you have a legal cite that proves single machine licensing doesn't apply to home use for an OS such as Windows, please provide it. 04-18-2001 16:30:38

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) Programmer Profile :) I used to sell OEM copies of Windows.. :) Microsofts License Requirements for OEM copies!! The company that bundles it MUST support it. It must be bundled with a system, or in certain volume cases, with a hard drive. If the hardware is sold, the License is transferable to the new owner of the hardware. The License is NOT transferable to any other hardware. The reason for the complete version of windows is so small system builders can provide a useful recovery disk; it will not restore to sale condition, but it pacifies customers. If you have a copy of the disk, then you can actually save a bit of money by just purchasing licenses, and giving those to your customers (with a true restore cd or without a cd). Reason MS sells Upgrades at Walmart, et al; these upgrades are for people who already have a license for a previous version, said license expires upon upgrade. The Upgrade is considerably less expensive than the retail version (usually around $200 - $400). Microsoft Supports Both the Upgrade version and the Retail version. Now onto the Legality of the Contract. Fair Use stipulates that you (a person (or a Citizen in IRS terms)) can duplicate a copyrighted work for a variety of reasons, including to give it to a friend. At this point if you copy it and give it freely to all your friends you are not in violation of COPYRIGHT law, now you ARE still in violation of the LICENSING agreement, hence MS can sue you for real damages. Now for the even MS programmers have to eat. It costs Microsoft approximately ($5.00) that's minus five bucks, for each copy of windows they produce, be it OEM, Upgrade, or Retail. How does this work? The greater the volume, the less it costs to produce, at some point, that cost comes close to the cost of the raw materials, plus the additional cost of minimum wage in ireland/mexico/wherever. Get a bit of advertising, AOL, MSN, and Compuserve come to mind, Throw in a bit more advertising, Gateway And Microsoft, was not sponsered by Microsoft, and you have a product that makes you money by producing it. Microsoft (Accoring to Microsoft) would make money from windows if they charged nothing for windows. ______________________________________________________________________________ Ed: you are right about the license agreement, but violating a license agreement (as a person) without violating copyright law is not illegal. It is a civil matter. Jack: Um, hi devils advocate.. you can see my answer Ev'rbody: F*CK MS!!!!!! OK so that wasn't so nice of me right there.. but hey, they deserve it. 04-19-2001 07:27:00

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) BadFlash Profile | Email It is not legal to copy copyrighted software and give it to your friends. That is a violation of the copyright laws. One of the real tests is economic damage to the copyright holder. This would be no different than burning copies of music CD's or making copies of videos and giving them to your friends. This causes a loss of sales. Using a single license of Win98 on multiple home machines is also illegal and a violation of the copyright law and the license agreement. Buisness use has nothing to do with it but is pursued by microsoft more aggressively. Don't get enforcement and legality confused. We are talking economics here, not right & wrong. Microsoft sees it can recover money from buisnesses, they see little future in going after individuals. The IRS uses similar tactics. Several things that are important to many people is the ability of the end product to pass must, not how you get there. Yes, I clearly understand that it is against Microsoft's intent for one to use an upgrade or an OEM product on something other than what they or their partners are getting a big cut of. This was one of the items that they were sued over in the monopoly law suite with unfair buisness practices. What they want, what is legal, what is ethical, and what can be enforced is all separate issues. Upgrade licenses pass muster with Microsoft, no matter how they got there. OEM licenses pass muster no matter what hard drive or computer they were sold for. If you can get them to work and it does not make your "Jiminy Cricket" start chirping, you got away with it. Where you can get nabbed is loading the same copy on multiple machines with the same CD code. Right & Wrong- Thou shalt not steal Ethical- What is best for the greatest number of people Legal- changes from day to day as the political winds change Enforcible- Any big company can bankrupt a small one or individual if they set their mind to it. I think not stealing is what one should look at. You need to make a judgement that if you figure out how to beat Microsoft at their own game in some small way, are you a copyright pirate, or a robin hood? On my next stop to Office Depot I'll see if I can get that number for you. I was there just the other day and saw a copy the was listed as "For use on a New PC". They have them. 04-19-2001 08:19:29

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) BadFlash Profile | Email BTW- http://www.directdeals.com/product.asp?id=444 has those upgrades for $14 if you want to upgrade your Win98FE :) 04-19-2001 08:20:56

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) EDDavis Profile There are plenty of things that would be best for the greatest number of people that would not be ethical. I think not stealing is what one should look at. You need to make a judgement that if you figure out how to beat Microsoft at their own game in some small way, are you a copyright pirate, or a robin hood? Who says they're mutually exclusive? By the way, the directdeals site listing is for an "Update", not an "Upgrade". ;) 04-19-2001 09:15:26

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) BadFlash Profile | Email EDDavis- what is your definition of ethical? As I said before, don't get ethics, right & wrong, and legal confused. There are places where they overlap, but there are plenty of gaps or lawyers wouldn't have the bad rep they have or the work they get. I also did not say that they were mutually exclusive, but they often are. If some one has something you need to live and they won't sell it to you, are you justified by your need to have it to steal it from them? Not saying that is the case here, but ethics, need, want, right & wrong often are at odds with each other. 04-19-2001 10:02:22

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) BadFlash Profile | Email "By the way, the directdeals site listing is for an "Update", not an "Upgrade". ;)" Yea, I know what it says, but we are dealing with definitions again. This upgrades, or updates Win98FE to win98SE. If you accidently install it on a Win98SE is changes the license number. Oh well. 04-19-2001 10:39:42

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) EDDavis Profile I don't know that I would make a distinction between "ethical" and "right & wrong". Legal is clearly distinctive. Since an ethic is basically a moral guideline, r&w should fall in line with "ethical". Can you give an example of something being ethical but wrong? 04-19-2001 11:20:31

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) BadFlash Profile | Email Ethics is based on a group guidelines and is an accepted form of behavior that tends to provide the best for everyone on a global basis from within the group. Wearing clothing is ethical in our society, but may result in being stoned to death in another setting. Sexual behavior in our society is governed by ethics. It is unethical in our society to sleep with another man's wife, but in inuit society of old it was expected and was needed to keep some diversity in the gene pool. In most societies it is unethical to kill members of the human race. It is usually circumvented by calling your tribe "human" and all other tribes "non-human" putting them in the same class as animals and allowing one to kill them. In short ethics requires a social structure to have meaning. In general ethical behavior benefits the group as much or more than the individual. It is ethical to pay your taxes, even if you don't believe in how the money is spent because it allows you to continue to provide for your family. Many times following the law is something you know is wrong, but it is ethical to do so out of self preservation. I'm a Viet Nam vet. I know all about following the law and doing wrong. The war crimes convictions show clearly one can "just follow orders" which is lawfull and ethical at the time, and pay the price for it down the road. Back to the main stream- Microsoft has a monopoly on operating systems for the mainstream user. Computing is no longer a luxury, but a nessesity. One does not have the choice to take their buisness elsewhere. Microsoft does not compete fairly, and does not honor their agreements in many cases with their customers. This works for microsoft and is "ethical" within their corporate predator position. We are prey animals and do not deserve to be treated fairly in their eyes. Their formula works for them. Does complaining to microsoft do any good? Does one have a resonable recourse? What is the ethical way to deal with a bully? Aren't we trained that we should stand up to them and punch them in the nose? 04-19-2001 13:27:32

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) mp3boombox Profile | Email EDDavis hehe i hate to say this but that is a comen sence question/answer hehe, and YES you can make coyp's for personal use only. You cant copy some games via CD TO CD because its a copy protection so you dont copy/distribute to other people and make money for thie self or just making the company that produced the product in the first place loose money also. THAT is the sole reason for copy protection. I.E. the psx CDS you can copy them all you want but the playstataion will not work with a copyed game UNLESS you have a mod chip. NOW notice how www.modchip.com is STILL running strong. SONY hates them with a pation because they cant tuch them. There providing a survice that alow's you to "MAKE BACKUP'S of your OWN software for personal use ONLY" Now exactly waht personal use MEANS ;) thats an other story but there is no law that says you cant copy yoru software from comoputer to computer taht you OWN in a non business environment, HOME envirorn ment. YES i know I'm an A+ speller. i could care less ;). PS if you truly feal that copying your own stuff is illegal then every cassett TAPE you have ever copyed of your own. Or made custom sound tracks to listen to in the car, BURN EM YOUR ILLEGAL BY your terms. LOL Got to love my cat, just got him back from the VET today. Got the BIG CHOP :S Now he's in total lala land, keeps shaking his HEAD if he gets a HAIR THAT IS ANOYING him and falls over LOL its halarious!!! 04-19-2001 14:13:52

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) EDDavis Profile Flash, I see where we're diverging. I consider ethics to be an internal compass, free from the biases of societal pressures and norms, not a group "this is right". In other words, X is always wrong regardless of what society says is right. By your definition though I can see how ethics and right/wrong might diverge. The ethical way to deal with a bully might be to try certain alternatives and if they fail, nail 'em. Will MS ever get what's coming to them? Got me. I doubt it. That might justify it somewhat, but it doesn't make it ethical or right by either of the definitions given. 04-19-2001 16:33:18

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) BadFlash Profile | Email Right and wrong are very slipper things. They are based on ones' beliefs and not what works or does not work. Ethical behavior must pass a success or failure standard within a given setting, even if it is "honor amoung thieves". Here is an example or "right". Assume I am a devout christian and believe in a literal translation of the bible and that what is says to do is "right". There are places in the bible that make demands on personal behavior that can lead to bombing abortion clinics, or giving away all of ones personal possesions and drinking poison cool-aide. The people that have done this do not believe themselves to be evil or stupid. They believe themselves to be "right" and doing God's will. Know one can argue about God being "Right". They can and do argue about what God said or what God really meant. When one talks about Right and Wong they are in a very dangerous area unless they are with like minded people. Ethical behavior is behavior that works to further a common goal for the greats number of people in your group or society. True ethical behavior would include a wider range including the planet, environment, and galaxy. We will soon have the technology capable of enclosing our sun in a sphere the size of our current orbit of earth (a Dyson sphere)which would be good for us, but doom the rest of the solar system to darkness. I wonder if the Galactic Ecology cops with show up and demand an environmental impact statement. 04-20-2001 12:44:19

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) Greenspark Profile Ethical behavior is behavior that works to further a common goal for the greats number of people in your group or society. As I stated, I don't agree with this definition, and I wouldn't consider your example "right" in any context. I consider ethical behavior essentially constant, regardless of society. If we cannot agree on the definition, I don't think we can agree on shades of meaning. Now, if someone could tell me how to change my account name completely (note profile still gives eddavis), I'd appreciate it. Greenspark 04-20-2001 12:53:35

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) Millennium_Falcon Profile | Email Is it ethical OR right to sell a car without the key to turn on the ignition? Is it ethical OR right to sell software without either documentation or some sort of technical support at least until it is started and running? Sure, free extended support would be like free repair services on the car, but to get the software installed and running is like getting the car out of the showroom. Win ME comes with a CD and a bunch of legal papers that essentialy say they have sold you nothing and take no responsibility for it. This I consider unethical AND wrong. Especilay in light of the fact that ME aparently was an orphan the day it was born and much software is not compatable with it. 04-21-2001 07:28:03

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) BadFlash Profile | Email The concept of there being a such thing as an absolute "right" or an absolute "wrong" is a concept that is fundamentally flawed. No one agrees on a definition of right and wrong and one only assumes that everyone else knows what it means. This is one of the reasons we hate lawyers so much. Once one tries to make an in-depth logical argument for what "right" is and what "wrong" is you start getting into trouble. All right and wrong actions are judged in context and from a viewpoint of ones culture. I can think of no action that would normally be considered wrong that would not be deemed appropriate given the right set of conditions. We tend to condemn societies that do not match our views of right and wrong, but they are functional and ethical for them. The whole issue of copyright protection is a concept that only makes in a setting that includes the concept of intellectual property. Many societies have no such thing and so can not protect something that does not exist. Native American's had no concept for ownership of land. This is true for many nomadic peoples. The white man could not steal the indian's land because they claimed no ownership. Is mass murder always wrong? Is incest always wrong? Is canabalism always wrong? Is killing your own children always wrong? Is killing your parents always wrong? I can show you lots of cases where any of these things are considered "right" and the persons doing these acts are considered heroes, either at the time, or sometime in the future. The many of the leaders of Israel and Palestine were wanted as terrorists. In retrospect they are now heroes to their own people, but were just criminals at the time that they were killing and bombing. Right and Wrong are cultural issues that one internalizes and stops questioning. Once one start to question them they will realize they are based in culture, not cosmic truth. 04-21-2001 08:33:54

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) friar Profile My dad used to be in sales (not computer related) and had various price lists depending on how much the customer could afford. I've been working for a number of years in the power industry here in CA, which as many people suspect is currently undergoing one of the biggest price-fixing fiascos that has ever been seen (IMHO). I see it all around us, in every corner of the market. Even so-called 'Consumer Advocates', while saying that they're out there to protect YOU, have an obvious conflict of interest or are getting paybacks (like Horowitz). So, the way it seems to me in these over-capitalistic times is that whatever price you can get and survive as a business is OK, and however the consumer can live without going to jail is OK. It seems like the dividing line today is what you can get away with (Clintons, for example). I'm not saying it's right, but if the computer industry can get away with selling you something that is faulty and limited in usability, then they will! Time and time again it plays out the same. When I was a kid I used to hear about how communism was so horrible, against God and nature, etc. meanwhile everyone's turning a blind eye to rampant, out of control capitalism! I bought my IO from a seller on Ebay, and had no strings attached, so at that point I could've taken a chainsaw to it if I'd wanted to. When I buy software, it is mine, right? I mean, if I wanted to take a torch to CD, would I be in violation of some law? Probably. 04-21-2001 08:58:14

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) Greenspark Profile A question like "Is X right/wrong" always has one answer: it depends. In the greater scheme of things I think there is a "true ethic" that persists. With that, I think my input on this non-technical thread is done with. But on that note, you think it would be right if you could answer a few questions on the chip upgrades both I and others posted on other threads here? Thanks. 04-21-2001 15:53:01

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) BadFlash Profile | Email Gimme a hint, which threads need help? Please post or e-mail me the links so I can have a look. 04-21-2001 17:00:50

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) Greenspark Profile Flash, you already covered most of the Q's -- safe core voltage on a + in the k62clk thread ...and... speed recommendations based on what cooling mods were installed in the "First Indications" thread. I simply missed them. But I'd still be curious (in the First Indications thread) about anything that would should FSB speed. MBM shows overall, and SoftFSB doesn't seem to be able to query this board/clock. Thanks for all the help. 04-21-2001 18:52:10

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) BadFlash Profile | Email Try http://www.linux-hacker.net/cgi-bin/UltraBoard/UltraBoard.pl?Action=ShowPost&Board=technical&Post=2142 for how to use softfsb to do it. 04-21-2001 19:25:35

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) mp3boombox Profile | Email come to think of it didnt microsoft state tha they would rather every one have a copy of windows PEIROD legal or non then not to have a copy period! 04-21-2001 19:35:09

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) BadFlash Profile | Email I'm a big believer in long-term self interest. People who are driven by that are generally considered as doing the "right" thing. People driven by short term self interest are generally considered doing the "bad" thing. Short term self interest leads to eating the seed corn. Seemed like a good idea at the time. Working toward long term self interest requires behavior that people can depend on so they will work with you for their long term self interest. We live in a tightly woven web. Part of our web is properly, including intellectual property. Capitalism work quite well as long as there is plenty of competition. Once that competition is destroyed and a monopoly is established it becomes needed for all of out long term self interest to do something about it. That is why the anti-trust law suite was made against Microsoft. They were found guilty and were ordered broken up to re-establish some competition and eliminate their predatory buisness practices. Microsoft is big enough that they can use the legal system to continue for years dragging out appeal after appeal. What we have is a convicted fellon walking around free and continuing to do what they were convicted of. We need a "Megan's Law" for corporations. In the mean time, I think no one will feel bad if you do what you will to old Billy boy. Don't treat everyone that way. It is not in your long term self interest to do so. 04-21-2001 19:42:48

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) Programmer Profile Friar: once you buy software it's your to do with as you please.. here's the catch, you can't buy windows (or even a copy of it) all you can buy is a license to use it. To copy it or distribute it you actually need another license, although Fair Use allows you to copy it for a variety of resons without regard to said license. 04-23-2001 06:21:09

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) friar Profile I regret what I wrote above in support of doing whatever you want that you can get away with. The ends do NOT justify the means. There is such a thing as right and wrong. So Microsoft has done some wrongs? That just gives us more incentive to find alternatives to Microsoft products, if we feel that way. I still feel that what I wrote does reflect a very prevalent, popular modern philosophy held by both individuals and corporations. I think if Microsoft and similar companies dealt 'above board' instead of operating from this philosophy that they would not only have much less problems but would also be the leaders they want to be, by giving us a better example of how we should do business. Someone has said, "All is fair in love and war" and business does seem like war sometimes, and maybe like romance as well! But you do have to live with yourself afterwards. </SOAPBOX> 07-06-2001 15:11:58

RE:Cheap, legal Win98SE (modified 0 times) BadFlash Profile | Email Well, now that the Feds have decided to make nice with MicroSoft, Bill Gates and his band of Merry Men will do as they please. They are equal oportunity and steal from the rich & poor alike. Because they have a monopoly they can charge whatever they please for their software without having to deal with market pressures. That being the case, you use Microsoft, or you live in a cave. If there were reasonable alternatives to Microsoft Windoz would be $15 rather than $100. I don't feel bad at all when I can pay the proper price for it. I buy all my software, but I don't always use it the way Microsoft wants. BTW- I found another neat use for that Win98SE update that started this whole thread. I got one of those cheap copies of WinME from WalMart. It wanted Win98 to load. I gave it the upgrade disk (Win98FE to Win98SE) and it liked it. 07-07-2001 14:44:14

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