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Home / DigitalVideoRecorders / Tivo Hacks My own opinion.... My own opinion....

My own opinion.... (modified 0 times) nickhull Profile You know the thing that sucks out of all this is that all that was released was software that has been in controlled circulation for months. Sorphin et al (the haves) taunted and flaunted to the have-nots with seemingly little criticism from their peers. The modifications to PlayStream were not great. If the MFS format hadn't changed in 2.0.1, the modifications would have been negligeable. It just took a few days of spare time to figure things out. The most interesting task was not necessarily the ExtractStream, instead it had to have been the re-multiplex. To turn code from a two pass multiplex to a single pass with intelligent buffering was a challenge. Thanks have to go to the annonymous programmer that optimized the heck out of the code to get the multiplex operational on the TiVo. What an effort! I seem to have gotten a lot of flack - a lot of negative comments. There is one thing that gives me some gratification. The software has been downloaded thousands of times. Maybe 90% will never get installed, but it brought to head issues that needed to be discussed and postions taken. I honestly think that TiVo will not be harmed by this release. And I really hope that this is the case. Remember that I too have paid my lifetime subs, and continue to pay a couple of monthlies too. IMHO the only reason to buy a TiVo today is for it's hack value. I can forsee the day when AOL completes its investment in TiVo and takes over the company (Netscape style). With the juggernaut of Microsoft competing in this forum, they don't stand a chance in hell by themselves. This, at least, is my 2 cents. 06-08-2001 22:43:42

RE:My own opinion.... (modified 0 times) Otto Profile nick: FWIW, I think you did a good job on the software. Well done. I wrote similar code myself, using playstream as a baseline, although I don't have any code to remultiplex the MPEG together. I basically had to write it, as sorphin et al wouldn't pass it along to me. However, I see their point. Tivo will not be harmed by this software. I don't think anyone has said otherwise. Tivo hacking, however, will be driven underground and not anywhere nearly as open. I'm sorry to see it happen, and I tried to prevent it. It was nice to be able to ask the programmers at Tivo for help with a tricky hack, but I no longer see that as a possibility once they try to crack down all the way. That's the only reason I tried to prevent it. Tivo will survive this, of that I have no doubt. But the fun is over. Sorry. :( And I do expect you to get sued, eventually, for releasing this. If I were you, I'd retain the services of a good lawyer. Yes, it's silly, but so was the DeCSS lawsuit. 06-09-2001 01:59:22

RE:My own opinion.... (modified 0 times) nickhull Profile It would be an interesting (but unwanted) lawsuit. Would someone care to tell me what I did? And, please, check your facts before answering. Playstream - not mine. mplex - not mine netcat - not mine TiVoNET - not mine httpd - not mine A message to AVS forums - mine. All that has been released was a combination of existing tools with their functionality either improved or corrected (and FYI, the release was not actually done by me either). I fail to see how a lawsuit could be placed on me for PlayStream, unless one is also placed on the original authors. I'm not tempting fate, but there's little basis for any action to be taken. Even if someone tried to accuse me of extracting copyrighted material, they would have an impossible time - I've never done it and that's the God's honest truth (there's a whole story to that one The part that is foolish is the adverse reactions for something that exists for other products. Replay TV has extraction software, and to be honest so did TiVo (ask sorphin and Tridge). I didn't expect the slashdot reaction - and I feel that is the reason why David Bott et al were upset. And I'm truly sorry for that - they guy didn't deserve having to deal with that mess. Hopefully this will all die down and nothing will come of it. After all, I was not seeking sensationalism when making the announcement. More like I was publicising a feature. I'm sorry you feel that hacking 'support' will be reduced. It may be for a time, but people will recover. Remember that MPEG extraction is not theft of service, there should be no harm to TiVo's income stream unless frivolrous lawsuits are placed on them, or advertisers back-out. I cannot even see why DirectTV would be upset - the software will not work on the DirectTiVo boxes unless someone else modifies the code (the bit-rates are too high for the code to handle). I plan to take a back-seat for a while and see how things pan out. David Bott should expect a sincere letter of apology from me in a couple of weeks, and maybe he will let me post one on AVS forums. Nick 06-09-2001 10:33:15

RE:My own opinion.... (modified 0 times) topset Profile Only time will tell, but sufficient time has passed. Nobody has been asked to remove the files from any site. If TiVo were concerned, they'd have made their requests by now. The MPAA had their lawyers threatening DeCSS sites within hours, and they had no previous warning that the code was coming. TiVo's known for 6 months. Had they been concerned, they'd have flexed legal muscle by now. The AVS TiVo Disney Underground forum is the only place that has requested that this not be discussed, and they explicitly state that the decision was not prompted by anything TiVo said. Just the "Nervous Nellies", "Chicken Little's", and Dan, "the tounge", SorLoser/fin. 06-09-2001 14:03:27

RE:My own opinion.... (modified 0 times) topset Profile Another point... Although TiVo can't say it, the publicity will give them a smile they can take to the bank. Had there not been such an uproar, and associations with DeCSS and Napster, the whole release might have gone unnoticed. How many TiVo's were sold that day because of the hack value? There were plenty of folks on slashdot that said they were running to the store that second to buy. Hey, this just might be enough to turn the tide and pull TiVo from its bad economic position. 06-09-2001 14:12:39

RE:My own opinion.... (modified 0 times) wmelnick Profile | Email Well Nick, It's not like we weren't expecting this. When I told everyone on the other board that I was working on the same thing some helped and many warned me that releasing it would cause problems. From a programming standpoint I know what was done and what was added and frankly none of it was rocket science. But you know what? Most people are idiots and have no clue. Guess we'll all be hanging here now. All The Best, W 06-09-2001 16:44:16

RE:My own opinion.... (modified 0 times) Otto Profile Yeah, I didn't expect the /. "i'm running to the store as I type this" reaction.. Funny really.. But frankly the DeCSS lawsuit(s?) had no merit, IMO, either. Still, they happened. DeCSS is not hard to find, admittedly, but they're still doggedly pursuing it.. What did you do, nick? You released it. Your name is out there. Whether it was hard or not doesn't matter. Whether the suit has merit or not doesn't matter. I wish you the best of luck man, sincerely. I don't know what will happen, but I don't think it looks good. :( Also, did you released the code itself? The copy I downloaded only had the binaries in it. I'll have to check around. Also, why did 9thtee pull the page? I never got a satisfactory explanation for that one. As for making it work on the DirecTivo, that shouldn't be difficult. I mean, all you have to add is some buffering or some form of delay feedback to the program. That would probably let you pull it out correctly via the httpd.tcl and a web browser too. 06-09-2001 21:46:06

RE:My own opinion.... (modified 0 times) topset Profile Did you see the post on the Disney Tivo Underground: Sorefin> ha.. "his work"... his so called work, is a hack of playstream.. barely changed.. and as for the begging.. i never gave in This comes from Tridge's own script kiddie! LOL!!! Otto> Yeah, I didn't expect the /. "i'm running to the store as I type this" reaction.. Funny really That and 9thTee's sales that day were very predictable. We nerds live for this sort of stuff... it doesn't have to be easy or inexpensive, just cool. TiVo's smiling all the way to the bank. You folks also didn't realize what you were told time after time: that TiVo, while they can't condone any mpeg extraction, will do nothing to stop the hacking. They have so many other options in this situation which make so much more sense... but, don't need repeating because the "guru's" didn't listen the first few hundred times. Otto> did you released the code itself? The copy I downloaded only had the binaries in it. The stuff I downloaded had the binaries and source... there were about four different pieces to download... things to be put on different platforms. Otto> Also, why did 9thtee pull the page? Maybe TiVo's lawyer's sent nasty letters to 9ThTee threatening legal action? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! Read the Slashdot posts: Their ISP went berzerk at 150,000 hits with some lame problem like "we have other customers who would like some bandwidth too". By that time, there were already many mirrors. 06-09-2001 22:12:16

RE:My own opinion.... (modified 0 times) topset Profile >But frankly the DeCSS lawsuit(s?) had no merit The DMCA has a provision against circumvention of decryption that the lower court judge ruled was more important than "fair use". The laws have swung towards protection of those capitalists who currently have popular products. The tide is turning. First the Senate, then the President, and someday the House. The laws will change in time. But, no matter how unfair we find the DMCA and the MPAA's reaction to the DeCSS, given the laws, the case has merit. You realize that there's no circumvention of encryption going on here. There is no case. 06-09-2001 22:21:08

RE:My own opinion.... (modified 0 times) wmelnick Profile | Email Otto: The source was not released? I honestly did not get to 9thtee in time to grab the distro. I have source from about 2 weeks ago that nick sent me in order to avoid duplication of our efforts. I am going to hang onto that in case this does come down to a lawsuit. It is pretty obvious, and I believe that it even states in the code, that it is a derivitive of playstream. Oh wait - he released this under the GPL so he has to release the source anyway. It is required as a derivitive work of a GPL'd product. Anyway... I am going to work on making it a little more 1.3 friendly this week. I think the next move ought to be to include direct flowthrough to mplex. This will require some modification to both nick's code and the mplx code as there are 2 simultaneous streams so you cannot do a simple pipe., but it should not be all that complicated. However there might be a better way to go about this. Writing some sort of "server" (RPC?) on the tivo that would allow an external linux box to make a call to the tivo to dump the data back to the originating box. Then we could pipe the video through re-encoding code to ditch the green bar and resample to SVCD or VCD then multiplex that with the audio to produce a program stream ready to be burned or played. W 06-10-2001 05:04:47

RE:My own opinion.... (modified 0 times) nickhull Profile The included version of mplex will allow direct streaming from ExtractStream. Yes, there are two pipes, but with a little (ok, a lot) of buffering there are no problems. You can ExtractStream to mplex, netcat to your linux pc, and display the video with your choice of viewer. If you really did want to use a single stream, it's very easy to make ExtractStream write out a single file with some kind of packet info (I'm not talking PES, just something proprietary). All you need to do is identify the packet as audio or video and include its size, then follow it with the stream data. When reading this file into mplex, you need to write some clever buffering code to post the packets to the correct buffer (audio or video), making sure that no buffer is ever overloaded or underruns. It's very do-able, but I say what's the point? The two stream approach works fine right now. Also, a hint to cure the stuttering on TiVo when playing back or extracting. Simply compile the included mplex for your PC. Pipe the ExtractStream to the PC using NetCat and get your (linux) pc to mplex the stream. You can then pipe to your viewer. 06-11-2001 08:47:59

RE:My own opinion.... (modified 0 times) BillGates Profile I am quite new to this tivo thing - in fact my first unit (sony srv2000 30hr) is still in shipping transit to me so I have never actually touched one. I was pushed over the edge to buy one when extract stream came out. In fact I intended to modify playstream myself but was hopefull somebody would beat me to it. (thanks Nik) I represent a very different user for this box than most of you. I really never watch TV and have no interest in the tivo service. I bought a box (the tivo) with some interesting hardware that runs linux and that I think I will be able to use for my own purpose. If you are curious about the abilities of this box, check out the specs for the Sony CXD1922 chip. It is very powerful and Tivo does not use its full potential. I want specifcally to use it as a stand alone MPEG encoder. I realize that there are lots of PCI cards out there that claim to do the same thing, but how many of them come with a 30 gig harddrive, cost less than $300 with the tivonet installed, and consume 0% of your computer resources to encode MPEG? In reality, none of the PCI cards do a very good job, unless you want to get a pro or semi-pro system and then the cost can go over $10000 very quick. The best I have seen so far is the top of the line G4 mac with the DVD burner and a software encoder (Travan Media CLeaner). While this system does a great job, it is expensive and encoding takes huge amounts of disk space and computer time. Even with the 733Mhz G4, encode time is at least 2x play time. My goal is simply to encode video from my DV video camera to VCD or DVD when the prices come down. By encoding right from the camera you do not need to store the huge raw DV data files, and you also get by with much less disk storage. So - features I would really like to see are: (and which I plan to add if possible) 1. firewire port and camera control software. I think the linux world already has a good start on this so it will mostly be a port from ppc linux. (I hope) 2. fix the ISA pseudo slot the tivonet now resides in or better yet, add a PCI bridge chip that would allow the use of off the shelf boards like 100 base/T ethernet, firewire, usb, etc. That is pretty ambitious I know - but possible with enough people on it. With the existing Tivo hardware and net card consider this possibility: <STREAM OF CONSIOUSNESS MODE ON> Using a Tivo and another firewire equipped computer like a mac running linux, write some tcp/ip socket code that would from the tivo, control a camera on the mac (via firewire) to dump say 10 seconds of video to a buffer file, transfer the file to the tivo (ethernet), encode, save/append to a normal disk file in the ext2 partition. Repeat until all the video is off the tape. Viola, you now have a MPEG version of your video without the need to store the whole thing as raw data. Transfer the mpeg file back to the mac and burn your VCD. </STREAM OF CONSIOUSNESS MODE ON> Anybody think any of this is possible? 06-11-2001 09:54:07

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