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k6-III 333 AFK

New Messagek6-III 333 AFK (modified 0 times) jw7u
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Hi - can somebody nearby a fry's location pick me up a k6-III 333 AFK? I will pay the price of the processor, shipping, and a bit more. Please let me know ASAP. email me at jw7u@andrew.cmu.edu

Also, has anyone experimented with using the 333 at the 100 FSB? Assuming you have upgraded to pc100 ram of course.. I would like to try running at 3 by 100, 300 mhz. Does the pci get divided by 3 at 100? Or will the HD bus be way out of range.. thanks

Jason

09-03-2000 11:28:52

New MessageRE:k6-III 333 AFK (modified 0 times) Las_Vegas
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I've tried it and it works, but the Yamaha chip (sound) craps out with any bus speed above 75MHz. FYI, it also doesn't work right below 66MHz.
Las_Vegas
http://iopener.how.to/
09-03-2000 15:04:10

New MessageRE:k6-III 333 AFK (modified 0 times) Tackhead
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Las_Vegas: Sound craps out at !=66 MHz? Works fine on my V1.

jw7u: Yes, the bus is divided down correctly to 33 MHz when running at 95 or 100 MHz FSB. But I think I'm still gonna stick with 4.5x66 for stability reasons.

While 100x3 = 300 is probably gonna give you a bit better overall performance than 4.5x66 = 300, I found I had instability at 3x95 or 3x100. (Weird - I ran 3x95 last night for a few hours and couldn't crash it... then I couldn't stabilize it at all this morning.)

Really annoyed, and in a "Hmph, we'll SEE if it's 'too much current' or 'not enough voltage' that's crashing me!" frame of mind, with VCore at both 1.90V and 1.95V, I shorted across R302 (the overcurrent protection resistor) and _still_ had the thing crash at 3x95 = 285, though far less often. That should have eliminated both possibilities.

So I removed my short across R302, returning to "normal" current limitations, and tried 4.5x66 = 300. I was unable to crash it running 10-15 minutes of solid Sandra benchmarks after an hour or two WinAMP and WhiteCap and Geiss, two relatively CPU-intensive plugins. (Both look great on an IO with a K6-III at 300. 9-10fps in Geiss is just about perfect given the limitations of the display.)

At 4.5x66 = 300, temperature topped out at 38C CPU (still cooler than WinChip) and 61C mobo (Q16 still without heatsink.) This is with the case open, YMMV.

When I get my hands on some thermally-conductive epoxy, I'll glom a small IC-sized heatsink onto Q16, and another heatsink on L32 (one of the two big inductors down near the power supply), which appears to run about as hot as Q16.

Anyone got a URL to power consumption data for the K6-III? I'd love to have some numbers to back up my "3x100 draws more VCore than 4.5x66" theory.

09-03-2000 16:01:12

New MessageRE:k6-III 333 AFK (modified 0 times) jw7u
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So.. can anyone pick me up one from fry's? ;)
09-03-2000 18:48:54

New MessageRE:k6-III 333 AFK (modified 0 times) Las_Vegas
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Takhead: No. Sound craps out below 66MHz. I had a bad connection with SW2 and it set itself to 60MHz. Suddenly, the Yamaha chip was non-funtional! Didn't figure out what the problem was until I booted and hit the Tab key and saw that the processor was running at 180MHz.
Las_Vegas
http://iopener.how.to/
09-03-2000 21:15:13

New MessageRE:k6-III 333 AFK (modified 0 times) Tackhead
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When testing K6-III hacks for temperature, you must have the back of your IO on.

K6-III-333-AFK, 1.90VCore running at 4.5x66 = 300. Runs stable with stock R302.

Cover off: runs at 48C CPU, 61C mobo (sensor near Q16)

Cover on: runs at 58C CPU, 80C (!) mobo. This is with a small fan pointing at the stock heatsink that reduced CPU temperatures by 5-6 degrees C; results using a passive cooling situation would have been worse. There's about half an inch of distance between Q16 and the actual temperature sensor; Q16 was probably several degrees hotter than reported.

Bottom line: If you're testing K6-III mods and temperature is a concern, it's vital to do the testing with the cover on. With the cover off, Q16 has plenty of airflow, and your results get seriously skewed.

Las_Vegas: Ah, thanks for the clarification on the Yamaha.

09-03-2000 21:21:44

New MessageRE:k6-III 333 AFK (modified 0 times) Unit_1
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Tackhead,
Are you sure those temps you were quoting are correct?? 80 degrees C! Why that's 176F! You could just about cook an egg on that cpu!

My I-O is configured just about the same as yours (AMD K6-III, 66.8 x 4.5, 2.0V core) and with CPUCool I show a stabile temp at sensor3 of 100F or 37.7C! With the cover on!

Now I must confess I have done my best to provide maximum cooling. I'm using the Lasagna fan on the cpu. I have a T0-220 heatsink on Q16 and a small 12V fan mounted on the outside of the open RAM access door blowing in with the remaining door opening sealed shut to force air into the case. After running for 4 hours, I've opened the access door and all parts inside feel just above room temp to the touch.

Just thought I'd pass along my expierence at trying to keeping it cool.

09-04-2000 16:26:11

New MessageRE:k6-III 333 AFK (modified 0 times) YouBecha
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What do you use to monitor the temps?

The BIOS only tells me the temp at idle, and Sandra's info is wrong...either that or my cpu actually is 68 deg. F. and doing a poor job of keeping the house cool.

09-04-2000 20:01:50

New MessageRE:k6-III 333 AFK (modified 0 times) ckbone
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Unit_1....I had the same idea about using the ram door opening for ventilation....I was going to install a larger fan into the base, and run a flexable tube up to the ram door opening...you could re-direct airflow to where-ever you needed it by using plastic channels. Never did it though....by mounting in the base you could really use a powerful fan...if you were having a heat problem. Anybody do it?
09-05-2000 03:39:17

New MessageRE:k6-III 333 AFK (modified 0 times) Tackhead
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Unit_1: I was running Motherboard Monitor 4, which reports temperatures that match the temperatures reported in the BIOS screens.

It took about two hours of continuous MP3 playback rendering fullscreen visualizations with WhiteCap (lots of floating-point math) and no software CPU cooling solution to "achieve" these hot temperatures.

I also had no fan on the CPU - just the stock heatsink and a _very_ small fan blowing a _very_ slight breeze (less than what you'd get through your breath exhaling slowly) across it. Finally, I had _no_ heatsink on Q16.

All of which are pretty silly things to do.

My goal was to get an idea of the baseline temperatures associated with various clock speeds so I could know how effective my future heatsinking (or software-based cooler if I can get 'em not to lock hard on the K-6, even though they work fine on the WinChip) hacks are.

After my torture test, upon powerdown and disassembly of the unit, there was also a *very* slight discoloration of the PCB around Q16 compared to the unit that hadn't been torture-tested.

Remember - my 80C figure isn't for Q16 -- it's for a sensor that's half an inch and a very hot capacitor *away* from Q16. Q16 runs *HOTTER* than the "motherboard" sensor temperature. I would not have been surprised to see water boil on Q16. While this is within the operating guidelines for Q16 (believe it or not!), it's certainly pushing the limits of what the adjacent capacitor can be expected to take. Had I run it in this state on a longer-term basis, that cap would have been dead meat. Probably the same comment applies to inductor L32 and its nearby caps.

ckbone: Your ducting idea is very worthwhile - we need a way to get air back *out* of the IO once it's passed over Q16, and this may be it. Imagine a heatsink in the middle of a piece of heat-shrink tubing (with a hole cut in one side, obviously!) going from one speaker grille to the other...

Back to the matter at hand.

The bottom line is that whether you run a WinChip at 200 MHz and 3.3Vcore, or a K6-III at 200 MHz and 1.9Vcore, you still consume the same wattage - the energy you don't release in the CPU gets dumped as heat when you drop that 3.3V down to 1.9V in Q16.

When you seal the IO back up, about the same amount of heat gets generated - but with the K6-III, the heat gets dumped into the motherboard via Q16 instead of the heatsink via the CPU.

I point out that even with my "no thermal management" solution, a K6-III massively underclocked to 166 MHz (2.5x66) runs at temperatures comparable to the original WinChip, but outperforms the Winchip in real-world tasks by a good 60%. At 200 MHz, the K6-III is about twice as fast as the WinChip.

I'll back *those* wild speculations up with numbers later today; basically I spent the last weekend tweaking and benchmarking.

The K6-III without thermal management is probably safe up to 200 MHz. Anything past this, and you've gotta start thinking more seriously about managing the heat. (And as you to 300 MHz and beyond, the solutions have to be *good*

09-05-2000 14:46:47

New MessageRE:k6-III 333 AFK (modified 0 times) Linuxguru
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It's by no means obvious that the K6-III at the same clock speed (200) as the Winchip consumes the same amount of *current*. In fact, all available evidence suggests that it consumes *less current*, even at 2.2 V. The situation improves in favour of the K6-III at 1.9 V. Therefore, the overall power dissipation in the CPU + Q16 is lower with the K6-III at the same clock frequency as the WinChip. Of course, the power dissipated in Q16 increases from 0 to about 40% when comparing the WinChip to the K6-III.
09-05-2000 15:00:28

New MessageRE:k6-III 333 AFK (modified 0 times) Tackhead
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Linuxguru: Yes - thanks for calling me on it.

In the same physical package (an IO with the cover on), my K6-III at 200 reached equilibrium at a higher temperature, both CPU and Q16-wise, than the WinChip 200.

When I saw this, I took those "temperature" readings at face val

09-06-2000 00:04:01

New MessageRE:k6-III 333 AFK (modified 0 times) Tackhead
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Linuxguru: Yes - thanks for calling me on it.

In the same physical package (an IO with the cover on), my K6-III at 200 reached equilibrium at a higher temperature, both CPU and Q16-wise, than the WinChip 200.

When I saw this, I took those "temperature" readings at face value and jumped to the "obvious" conclusion - namely that the K6-III box is generating more heat than the WinChip box, and that it must therefore be consuming more power. (Less power dissipated at the CPU, more power dissipated through Q16.)

I noticed that the curves of the two sensors differed significantly during the course of each test.

On the WinChip 200, both curves tracked each other to within a degree or two from 20C up to around 45-50C final temperature.

On the K6-3 at 200 MHz, the motherboard (Q16) sensor went to the high-50C range relatively quickly, where the CPU sensor (located on the V1 motherboard beneath the CPU) spent a lot of time in the 30s and 40s; it took a much longer time to catch up.

What I think is happening is that the K6-3 is running plenty cool (i.e. consuming less power - as in volts X amps - than the Winchip), but Q16 is also consuming power, and much of this heat is being dissipated into the motherboard. Eventually that heat flows and hits the CPU sensor, causing it to report a higher temperature than if it were tracking CPU power consumption only.

If a sensor half an inch away from Q16 reads 60C, it probably wouldn't be a stretch to see the sensor on the motherboard in the "square" part of the CPU socket (only another inch or two) hitting numbers in the 40C range even *without* a CPU to generate heat.

Unfortunately, that means I can't rely on either "temperature number" to come to a meaningful conclusion between processors.

The way to settle this debate (and actually, this'd be a fun project) is to hook an ammeter in series with the power supply on a Winchip-200 and a K6-3-200. There are no moving parts, so it all gets turned into heat (well, minus the photons in the backlight!) inside the case.

Based on the fact that the K6-3 *chip* heats up more slowly than the WinChip, I think we both agree that the K6-3 *chip* draws less power than the WinChip.

Where we differ is the notion that you believe K6-3-200+Q16 consumes less total power than WinChip200+Q16. If I rely on my temperature numbers to reflect what's going on inside the machine, I think the K6-3+Q16 *is* consuming more power (3.3V x amps) than the Winchip, but I've just established that I can't rely on those temperature numbers to tell me anything meaningful about total heat dissipated inside the case.

So you've convinced me - there are enough confounding factors that I no longer have an opinion either way in terms of overall power dissipation. I'll guess that the K6-3-200 and WinChip 200 are probably comparable, but I won't know which one's gonna come out on top until I actually break out the ammeter and see who draws more current outa the wall.

(Now I just gotta dig out the parts to put the test clips in series with the 19V output from the wall wart without cutting my power cable up... aaaaaah, this IO hacking never ends!)

09-06-2000 00:04:06

New MessageRE:k6-III 333 AFK (modified 0 times) Linuxguru
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Tackhead, the current drawn by the CPU complex can be approximately measured by measuring the voltage across R302 (as suggested by Turbo3). You may be right in your guess that the K6-III consumes more current than the Winchip, clock-for-clock. Of course, it's at a lower voltage, so the VI product is lower for the K6-III CPU alone.

The K6-III was produced on a more advanced process (lower power-delay product per transistor), but its transistor count is also much higher due to the L2 cache. Also we can't really estimate the proportion of active transistors per cycle, so no conclusion can be drawn from the process superiority.

09-06-2000 00:57:30

New MessageRE:k6-III 333 AFK (modified 0 times) Turbo3
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You don't need an amp meter to see how much power each processor is using. Just connect two small wires to R302 and measure the voltage across it. It will be in the 10-80 millivolt range. Just divide the voltage reading by the resistance of R302 and you have the total amount of amps of 3.5 that each processor is taking. I have an iopener setup like this with a pot to adjust the vcore to anyting I like. If I can get some free time in the next few days I can run some tests between a K6-III 333 and the Rise both running at 200 MHz. But it might not happen until the weekend. The Winchip measurements are a little more difficult since it is not a split voltage plane processor and I would need to use a different iopener but someone else could take those measurements.
09-06-2000 01:03:15

New MessageRE:k6-III 333 AFK (modified 0 times) info
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Finally made the trip down to fry's at Wilsonville, Oregon - 206 miles each way. I picked up "3" of the AMD K6-III 333MHZ AFK's. They still have several dozen left. $29.99.
09-10-2000 16:09:10

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